viking vm-13

[dmgwalsh]

What do you guys think of the vm-13?

[dags_lax]

Viking make a good cue at a fair price. Although I have a McDermott Masterpiece Cue Cue with some pearlized inlays I am not a big fan of the pearlized looks.

More to the point is what do you think of the VM13. You are the one that has to play with it. If you know some one who has a Viking with the same joint style ask them to let you give it a try. Some dealers will let you test drive a cue for a few shots. If your dealer does that ask him to let you try one out.
I own three Vikings, two of them for over fifteen years, and I cannot say any thing bad about them. They play good.

[Jim]

When I saw you ask "What do you think of the VM13?", I assumed you were talking about the appearance. Once I saw a response directed at the joint style, it prompted me to add a comment. Keep in mind that whichever Viking cue you choose, you are able to order that model with any one of 6 different joints. Charges for changing joint styles range from $15-30 at most Viking Cue Dealerships. So if you are wondering about how the VM13 "hits", remember that the desired "hit" can be attained on most any Viking cue by utlizing the options available in joints, tips, tip diameters, weights, etc, offered by Viking cue. Selecting a Viking cue should come down to the appearance you prefer. The performance should be able to be duplicated on most any Viking using those options. We offer all those options because we believe that what works well for one person, is not necessarily what works best for another. That's why we don't put forward one cue and claim it's the best for all pool players. We simply afford the player the opportunity to order their cue the way HE or SHE wants it, using construction techniques we've honed over 37 years, to ensure a solid, high quality product.

[dmgwalsh]

When I saw you ask "What do you think of the VM13?", I assumed you were talking about the appearance. Once I saw a response directed at the joint style, it prompted me to add a comment. Keep in mind that whichever Viking cue you choose, you are able to order that model with any one of 6 different joints. Charges for changing joint styles range from $15-30 at most Viking Cue Dealerships. So if you are wondering about how the VM13 "hits", remember that the desired "hit" can be attained on most any Viking cue by utlizing the options available in joints, tips, tip diameters, weights, etc, offered by Viking cue. Selecting a Viking cue should come down to the appearance you prefer. The performance should be able to be duplicated on most any Viking using those options. We offer all those options because we believe that what works well for one person, is not necessarily what works best for another. That's why we don't put forward one cue and claim it's the best for all pool players. We simply afford the player the opportunity to order their cue the way HE or SHE wants it, using construction techniques we've honed over 37 years, to ensure a solid, high quality product.

I actually saw you mention to someone else about the vm17 and was curious.

As long as you mention it, however, I do have a question about the joints and what soft hit, firm hit, etc. means. Do they mean, for example that you only have tto hit it soft to get a solid response or that if you hit it solidly, you will get a soft response from the ball.

[dags_lax]

All joints, if they are tight and fit flush, will adequately transfer the energy from the cue to the cue ball. There may be some theoretical differences in the amount of energy transferred to the cue ball but i think that it would be so insignificant as to be a non factor in the choice of a joint style. There will be a slight difference in the feel and sound depending on the joint but a bigger factor will be the diameter, taper, and tip of the shaft as well as the weight of the cue.

[dmgwalsh]

All joints, if they are tight and fit flush, will adequately transfer the energy from the cue to the cue ball. There may be some theoretical differences in the amount of energy transferred to the cue ball but i think that it would be so insignificant as to be a non factor in the choice of a joint style. There will be a slight difference in the feel and sound depending on the joint but a bigger factor will be the diameter, taper, and tip of the shaft as well as the weight of the cue.

So when Viking talks about different joints giving a different hit, they are not talking about a different amount of energy transfer, but only a different subjective feel? A "soft" feel ? or a "firm" feel? I guess I don't understand the differences.

[Jim]

I am no physicist, by any means, but after talking with dealers and professional shooters all day, I have come to some generalizations that appear to be commonplace. Generally speaking, the smaller the diameter of the tip, the easier it is to get english, but the tougher it is to control. The reason for that is the amount of "dwell time" that the tip has on the cue ball. If you play with a shaft that has a hard tip, a short taper (making for a stiffer shaft), and a stainless steel joint, which keeps the energy from transferring to the butt, you will get a "stiff, hard" hit. If it's stiff enough, it could almost be compared to hitting a ball with a piece of rebar. The cue ball would spring right off the tip. The amount of "dwell time" (the length of time the tip of the cue spends touching the cue ball), will be minimal. If you have a soft tip, and a longer taper that allows the shaft to flex when it hits the cue ball, then the dwell time is increased. The length of time the tip spends touching the cue ball is greater. As the long-tapered shaft unflexes, it remains in contact with the cue ball. If you could envision a shaft flexing, then you should be able to realize that the tip maintains contact for quite a while, and as it unflexes, it pushes the cue ball away from the tip, and the unflexing tip puts the spin on the cueball that makes it a bit more difficult to control. Some manufacturers like a narrow shaft with a long taper because the player is impressed with how much english he can get. He doesn't notice he's usually off a bit from the perfectly hit straight shot. On the other hand, I know players who have played with a "soft hitting" cue for so long, they know how to compensate for the spin, and do so automatically in their stroke/aim. Again, personal preference.

[dmgwalsh]

Joint 1 Metal to Implex
Provides a firm hit
Joint 2 Metal to Metal
Gives a hard hit
Joint 3 Metal to Metal
Double-threaded to provide a very hard hit
Joint 4 Implex to Implex
Gives a soft hit and has 3/8 - 10 pin
Joint 5 Implex to Implex
Gives a soft hit

What does this stuff mean, assuming the tips and tapers are the same?

[dags_lax]

Imagine two shafts for the same cue. One has a 13 mm diameter with an 8" taper. The other shaft has a 12.25 mm diameter with a 15" taper. Both have a brand new LePro tip. When you strike the cue ball it feedback that you feel in your hands will different depending which shaft you have on your cue.

The sound that a cue makes lends a bit of subjectiveness to the perceived feel of the hit. Two cues may actually feel almost identical but sound vastly different therefore what the player perceives as to how solid the hit is may not be accurate.

An example of this is automobile manufactures. They actually do research into the sound that a door makes when closing and how the consumer perceives that sound as being a solid sound.

[Jim]

Let me start by saying the debate over exactly what is meant by “hard hit” and “soft hit”, is rehashed every time people in the billiard industry get together at trade show, seminars, etc. As is the varying degrees of “deflection” or “squirt” created by each, it’s effect on the shot, etc., etc. Slow-motion video, mechanical swinging robots, and unending theories abound. So much of it will come down to gathering data and drawing some of your own conclusions.
To help understand a bit more about “soft” and “hard” hits, let’s look at an analogy to which we more easily relate. Remember when we were kids and went to the school on Saturdays to throw the baseball at a school wall upon which we’d drawn a square “batter’s” box. Remember doing that? In most cases, the walls of the school were brick (usually red). We threw the ball at the wall. The ball bounced off the wall, and back towards us, to pick up and throw again. When we threw that ball at the wall, we threw it at a “hard/firm” surface, and it bounced back towards us. If we had tried to hang a mattress from the wall, and thrown the ball at the mattress, it would not have bounced back with the same vigor, obviously. Why? The mattress absorbs most of the energy the ball brought to the mattress. Much of the energy was transferred to the mattress. Had we hung up a sheet of styrofoam instead, the result would have been a bit different than either the brick wall or the mattress. So the material the ball comes in contact with IS a factor in how the ball rebounds from that material. The more “give” in the material, the less resiliency in the rebounding ball. In terms of a cue, a softer tip, and a shaft that flexes (small tip diameter, long shaft taper), and an Implex joint, all promote force absorption by the cue stick. Conversely, a hard tip, a shaft that doesn’t flex as much (wider tip diameter, shorter shaft taper), and a stainless steel joint, all promote maximum force as it rebounds off the cue stick. So there is a difference in the properties of the cue ball when it bounces off your cue stick. The abstract “feel “ when you hit the cue ball, will be different with each. Which you’ll like best is individual preference. But there is a difference. A major factor is the difference in “deflection” or “squirt”, but that’s a whole other topic. Try extreme examples of each and see which you like best.

[dags_lax]

Jim offers a good example by demonstrating the extremes using a brick and Styrofoam wall but let's take a look at it in a way more reflective of the real world.

Now lets put 28" of wood, 1" of ferrule material, and a layer of leather over both the brick wall and the Styrofoam wall then throw the baseball. While you may see some difference in the rebound I doubt that it would be much.

Now let's take this example even a step further. Let's make the wall a layer of leather, 1" of ferrule material, 28" of wood, 1" of steel and another 28" of wood. Now let's make another wall and replace the steel with wood or a the plastic material that is used to make a cue joint. Now when we throw the ball at these two walls I think the difference in the rebound would be so small as to be insignificant.

While different joints may feel different the difference in what actually happens to the cue ball is very very minor. But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong (again).

It would be interesting to find out what joint actually transfers the most energy to the cue ball. This could easily be done with these mechanical pool playing robots. Predator has Iron Willie and two different style joints. Maybe Neil could have the boys in the shop set up a test if they already haven't done so.

For what it's worth I use a Viking VM29 (sneaky pete) with a wood to wood joint and a Picone jump tip for breaking. Nothing else in my arsenal spreads the rack quite like this combination.