Redoing the finish on a production cue

[Gwjackal]

KJ, If I were to purchase a production cue, I have had my eyes on a schon, would you be able to apply another coat of clear over the linen wrap kinda how the meucci cue's are.

[skor]

why......
why would you want to cover the wrap? if you don't like wraps then get a wrapless cue.

BTW In order to make it nice you'll need to remove the wrap then sand the handle down and rewrap the cue and then apply the coat. Otherwise the cue won't feel smooth as the handle section will be higher.

and one more thing, Schon are not production cues.

[KJ]

Gw,
Yes, I can apply clear over your wrap if that's what you want and no, I wouldn't have to strip the finish off the rest of the cue to shoot clear on the wrap. One of the features of auto-clear is that it allows a very durable finish at minimal millage (.002/.003"). That is very easy to blend/feather into the existing finish. It's not a complicated process but there are other issues to consider. If you were to ever send the cue back to Schon, for whatever reason, they would refuse to do work on it because someone other than Schon had done work on the cue in the past. That's just the way they are.

Skor,
I'm curious as to what you determine to be a production cue. I've seen some of Schon's catalogs with as many as 24 different models. Their construction is currently overseen by master cue builder Evan Clarke but they are very much a production shop. They will make as many model # cues as there is demand. They do have a LTD edition series but even those are built with a limit of 12 of each model.

[skor]

Yes, Schon, Pechauer, Jacoby and a few others "custom cue makers" all have "lines" of cues but still the production process is not the same as Lucasi's or Viking....
All these makers have a person behind the cue that you can contact and you can order your own 1 of a kind from all of them, but you can't get a one of a kind Cuetec or Fury....

I consider a maker to be "custom" on the base of cue building methods and not number of cues per year...

BTW, I just had a few more makers that have "lines" of cues that you can order from many on-line dealers, makers like Ariel Carmeli, Dale Pery, Samsara and Bill Mcdaniel....

Bill Mcdaniel have been using CNC to build cues for many years and so does Josey, would that make them any less "custom cue makers"?

I've always thought of makers like those 3 I mentioned at the start of this post as "semi-custom" makers but there is really much more to it then just numbers of cues being produced from the same model.
Even you have a "line"... If the demand was higher and you could have produced more cues of the same models without loosing the integrity of the cue construction, quality and finish even if it took you to hire 2 guys to help "production", would that make you into a "production cue maker"?

[PoolDad]

and one more thing, Schon are not production cues.

They are not production cues?? Hmmm, Since when?

[jkregan]

I kind of agree with Skor that Schon cues are not mass production cues but I think the distinction between production and custom is similar to the distinction between a sport and a game. If I had the money to buy a high-end Viking or a mid-range Schon, my money would go for the Schon.

I still cannot get my wife or my daughter to consider that billiards is a sport. Any suggestions?

[PoolDad]

I kind of agree with Skor that Schon cues are not mass production cues but I think the distinction between production and custom is similar to the distinction between a sport and a game. If I had the money to buy a high-end Viking or a mid-range Schon, my money would go for the Schon.

I still cannot get my wife or my daughter to consider that billiards is a sport. Any suggestions?

I beg to differ with all of you who think that Schons (and Viking) are not production cues.
Though both makers are considered on top of the food chain in production cues they are in no way shape or form, CUSTOM.
Well-known cue makers make a small amount of cues per year and it's usually 1 of 1. Tipically, you go to a cue maker with a piece of paper with your own specs and woods and materials to be used and it is made to fulfill your requirements.
Anything else it is either production, ltd production, 1/1 etc.....
As far as Billiards being a sport, well there's being a lot of debate on the subject. I always felt pool was a skill rather than a sport but here's an article from the world games that Billiard sports made their debut in The International World Games:
http://www.worldgames-iwga.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,1044-163514-180729-18047-62398-custom-item,00.html

[PoolDad]

By the way, I even started a thread on AZ Billiards on this subjet and here's the link:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=83985
You be the judge but I consider Schon cues to be PRODUCTION CUES.

I also wish everyone on this forum a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

[skor]

I beg to differ with all of you who think that Schons (and Viking) are not production cues.
Though both makers are considered on top of the food chain in production cues they are in no way shape or form, CUSTOM.
Well-known cue makers make a small amount of cues per year and it's usually 1 of 1. Tipically, you go to a cue maker with a piece of paper with your own specs and woods and materials to be used and it is made to fulfill your requirements.
Anything else it is either production, ltd production, 1/1 etc.....
As far as Billiards being a sport, well there's being a lot of debate on the subject. I always felt pool was a skill rather than a sport but here's an article from the world games that Billiard sports made their debut in The International World Games:
http://www.worldgames-iwga.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,1044-163514-180729-18047-62398-custom-item,00.html

So, I'll go back to my last post, according to you makers like McDaniel, Carmeli, Jacoby and a few more are not custom cue makers...
How about BCM? that you just got two really nice cues from him, he and many other custom cue makers make cues to have in stock without having a customer ordering them so is that makes them production cues makers?

I agree that the word "custom" is used in the billiard cues industry a bit loosely and sometime out of context....
A company that customize a product to a customer needs or wants is a "custom manufacturer" so if we take that into the billiard cues industry then each manufacturer that ofer customization to their product should be called a "custom cue manufacturer" and in this case manufacturers like Viking and Pechauer are custom manufacturers since they offer the service of changing colors, joint type and other features to their cues while I'm not sure the Schon offer such a thing....
Because the line between custom cues and high end production cues is a bit blurry I think that defining who is "custom" and who is not should be based on the cunstraction methods and process and not based on who decides what color the veneer will be or the shape of an inlay or the type of rings or type of wood.

[Danktrees]

no ariel and those guys ARE custom cue makers. they will build u any cue u want with any specs, materials etc. just give them a rough drawing of what you want and they will build it the way you want it.

schon on the other hand will not build u a cue based on a drawing unless is closely resembles a cue in their current line. thats what differentiates them from a custom cuemaker.

also, putting a thin layer of finish over a linen wrap is good. after the finish is applied if u take fine sandpaper and sand it down u will find that the linen wrap provides much more grip than a normal linen wrap. if u ever wonder why some ppl have cues that look brand new and yet the wrap is all worn down it is because they did this to their cue/wrap as it provides a better feel and better grip.

[PoolDad]

no ariel and those guys ARE custom cue makers. they will build u any cue u want with any specs, materials etc. just give them a rough drawing of what you want and they will build it the way you want it.

schon on the other hand will not build u a cue based on a drawing unless is closely resembles a cue in their current line. thats what differentiates them from a custom cuemaker.


My point exactly. I can get a STL o LTD model Schon from any dealer... why? Because they are mass produced.

[KJ]

Yes, Schon, Pechauer, Jacoby and a few others "custom cue makers" all have "lines" of cues but still the production process is not the same as Lucasi's or Viking....
All these makers have a person behind the cue that you can contact and you can order your own 1 of a kind from all of them, but you can't get a one of a kind Cuetec or Fury....

I consider a maker to be "custom" on the base of cue building methods and not number of cues per year...

BTW, I just had a few more makers that have "lines" of cues that you can order from many on-line dealers, makers like Ariel Carmeli, Dale Pery, Samsara and Bill Mcdaniel....

Bill Mcdaniel have been using CNC to build cues for many years and so does Josey, would that make them any less "custom cue makers"?

I've always thought of makers like those 3 I mentioned at the start of this post as "semi-custom" makers but there is really much more to it then just numbers of cues being produced from the same model.
Even you have a "line"... If the demand was higher and you could have produced more cues of the same models without loosing the integrity of the cue construction, quality and finish even if it took you to hire 2 guys to help "production", would that make you into a "production cue maker"?

CNC is just another tool of the trade and has nothing to do with whether a builder is custom or production. Just about all builders today use CNC in some form or another. I don't, as of yet, have CNC in my shop but the shaft blanks that I purchase are cut using CNC technology. They are oversize & unfinished when I get them. Going from a square to a dowel and then to a tapered dowel is very time consuming. All CNC does is make the process less time consuming and more efficient. Since time is money, CNC also makes the process more cost effective.

CNC also makes the task of doing inlays considerably easier. Inlay shapes and designs done today on CNC were unheard of back in the day. Today, you can have an inlay design done of your choosing. That falls under the heading of 'custom'. CNC just makes a tough job easier and quicker. It's a tool, granted a very modern tool but it's still just a tool.

Yes, I have a line of cues, several actually. The reason being, it makes much more sense to HAVE a line of cues for display, particularly in a web-site format, rather than just being known as a cue builder and sitting around twiddling until an order comes in. Much of the reason I'm in this business is to sell cues and it just makes sense to have at least a small line of cues for potential buyers to see.

Unless someone stops by to say 'HEY', I'm the only one in my shop. I don't have employees. When my name goes on a cue it means that I'm the only one who has been involved in building the cue. At the time of this writing, I intend to keep it that way. I'm certainly not going to take credit for another man's labors. I think it's very unethical. If demand for my cues increased substantially, I'd have to revert to a waiting list. It's not unheard of. SouthWest Cues currently has a waiting list of 7 yrs.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the term 'custom' has become very blurred. There's a thread currently running on AZ pertaining to just this question : http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=83985

Truth be told, I think you could get a custom McDermott, Fury, CueTec or whatever if you threw enough money at them.

Just as a side note, Bill McDaniels has recently sold his shop to two young men who he had taught and they had been working with him building cues. The name of this new cue company is World Class Cues.

[Addendum] - While pondering the distinction btwn. production & custom, this occurred to me. It has to do with the word 'intent'. The people who start-up production cue companies do so with the 'intent' of being production. Custom builders enter the game with the intent on being custom. After that is where it starts to get blurry.

A production co. may get slow at times and decide to open the doors to a little custom work. Conversely, a custom builder may get so big that he decides to go production. Is it getting blurry yet?

I'd venture a guess that the larger companies in this country got their start as a one or two man operation. This is not the case in China. At this point, the 'intent' theory starts to fade and I'm starting to think I may need glasses. At the end of the day, does it really matter?

[Danktrees]

good thing i still have my mcdaniel..hopefully that goes up in value. its a great playing cue too i like it a lot but my player will always be my carmeli. unless of course my future searing turns out to be an absolute beast.

lol @ custom cuetec. that would be amazing i think. it'd probably be the only custom made cuetec in the world.

[PoolDad]

CNC is just another tool of the trade and has nothing to do with whether a builder is custom or production. Just about all builders today use CNC in some form or another. I don't, as of yet, have CNC in my shop but the shaft blanks that I purchase are cut using CNC technology. They are oversize & unfinished when I get them. Going from a square to a dowel and then to a tapered dowel is very time consuming. All CNC does is make the process less time consuming and more efficient. Since time is money, CNC also makes the process more cost effective.

CNC also makes the task of doing inlays considerably easier. Inlay shapes and designs done today on CNC where unheard of back in the day. Today, you can have an inlay design done of your choosing. That falls under the heading of 'custom'. CNC just makes a tough job easier and quicker. It's a tool, granted a very modern tool but it's still just a tool.

Yes, I have a line of cues, several actually. The reason being, it makes much more sense to HAVE a line of cues for display, particularly in a web-site format, rather than just being known as a cue builder and sitting around twiddling until an order comes in. Much of the reason I'm in this business is to sell cues and it just makes sense to have at least a small line of cues for potential buyers to see.

Unless someone stops by to say 'HEY', I'm the only one in my shop. I don't have employees. When my name goes on a cue it means that I'm the only one who has been involved in building the cue. At the time of this writing, I intend to keep it that way. I'm certainly not going to take credit for another man's labors. I think it's very unethical. If demand for my cues increased substantially, I'd have to revert to a waiting list. It's not unheard of. SouthWest Cues currently has a waiting list of 7 yrs.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the term 'custom' has become very blurred. There's a thread currently running on AZ pertaining to just this question : http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=83985

Truth be told, I think you could get a custom McDermott, Fury, CueTec or whatever if you threw enough money at them.

Just as a side note, Bill McDaniels has recently sold his shop to two young men who he had taught and they had been working with him building cues. The name of this new cue company is World Class Cues.

Thanks for the reply KJ. I am the one who started the thread at AZ Billiards and after more than 1100 views and 39 replies there's still only 1 person who maintains Schons are custom.
Since the BCM's I got recently were brought up here's the scoop: on the first one I picked the woods, points, ferrule and joint material wrap and weight. Bryan wrote it in a piece of paper I reviewed it and after a couple of modifications he built the cue taking him almost a year.
Bryan advised me to hang on to it that he would never build another one like it so I will.
On the next one I had mentioned to Bryan that I liked a cue he has in his gallery made of African Olivewood and I wanted one.
He called me to tell me he had the wood and I had him build it, we changed the colors on the shaft and joint making this cue 1 of 1 also......

Take care everyone and have a Happy New Year!