Break Cue Question

[dkruger]

What makes a break cue special, specifically what makes it a great break cue? Is it the tip, is phenolic better than leather? Is it the weight? The Taper? The type of wood? etc?
And whats the difference between each Jump/Break cue that have phenolic tips, like between J&J, Fury and Sledgehammer etc? Which one is the best on performance?

[skor]

What makes a good break cue?
1. Hard tip - could be phenolic
2. Light waight - the lighter the better :!:
3. Balance - The way players hold the break cue has changed a bit over the last few years, up untill a few year ago, players would grip the butt closser to the Joint so a good break cue had a forward balance, now days a lot player grip the break cue at the end of the butt so a "butt heavy" cue will feel better.
Figure out how you like to grip the break cue and get a cue with the right balance for your break.
4. Stiff shaft with a taper that is more cone shaped will produce more power (and if you ask Tim Allen then you'll know that more power is always better.....)

The difference beween different cues can be in terms of quality of wood and production, if the wood have been dried well enough and was chemically treated then it'll be more warp resistance.
Phenolic is not the same thing from one to another, Penolic Resin is a thermosetting resin between Phenol and other synthetic or organic material. this means that different materials will give different hardness and durability.

[txplshrk]

As with every aspect of this game it is different for different people. It is all what you like and all what you get accustomed too. I get a lot of flack from a lot of people because I break head on, and not from the left or right side. I also get a lot of flack because I like a heavier break cue over a lighter one.

My technique is the one that works best for me, not to say it will work for you. My typical break cue has about a 13.5mm tip and it is hard water buffalo tip. It wieghs about 28.5 oz, and everyone thinks that is too heavy, until they see me break. I almost always pocket a ball on 9 ball (if not more than one), and they are all over the table with good spreading. On 8 ball I pocket a ball about 75% of the time, and again I always get good spacing. The cue ball almost always ends up close to the center of the table giving me adaquate placement for a run out. (This part took me a while on nine ball cause for some reason I always used to scratch the cue in the side pocket on the break.)

Like I said my technique isn't for everyone. In BCA rules you can only use a 25 ounce. So I have a cue that is 24.5 oz for those occasions.

Most people like to be able to swing faster, the idea is that they get more power from it. That is why they use a lighter stick.

Well to me it is like being in a fight. Does the heavy weight hit harder? Or the feather weight? I would have to say most the time the feather weight can hit faster and quicker, but the heavy weight packs a heavier punch. Combine a heavy weight with a fast punch, and you definatly have some power behind it. I swing my heavy stick almost as fast as some swing a light stick. Therefore the extra weight packs more power.

That is just my opinion, but again, not many people agree with my opinion on this one.

I just know it works for me, and almost everyone comments on how good my breaks are, and I get them consistantly.

[spartan]

Wow. You pocket a ball every time breaking 9 ball? Pros cant even do that.

[txplshrk]

Not everytime, cause no one can pocket one everytime. But I would have to say probably 90% of the time yes, at least one ball when I break on 9 ball.

[spartan]

No disrespect but I do not believe you.

[txplshrk]

Well, then that is cool. A lot of people give me shit when they feel how heavy my break cue is. Then when they see me pocket balls consistantly they are like where can I get one like that. I have pocketed 4-5 balls in 8 ball about a dozen times with this cue. With a lighter cue the most I could do was about 3. The first night I got it I pocketed the 9 ball 3 times in a row on the break in 9 ball. I knew then, once I got the technique down I could have a killer break with that cue.


The truth is I don't care if you believe me or not, I was just sharing information.

[havoc]

i have an old mali that i was going to make into a break cue.
i am now getting a new stick and with this stick comes a dufferin sneaky pete.i was told the dufferin would make a better break cue.now i'm told that might not be so because of it being a wood to wood joint.the issue being the wood might split.

what are you guy' thoughts?

[txplshrk]

From what I know the wood to wood joint won't have any problems. Look at McDermott. They make a Jump Break Cue that is wood to wood joint. In fact I have one of these Jump Break Cues. I haven't had any problems with it. I can't speak for anyone else though.

Actually my 28.5 ounce is wood to wood too. I haven't had any problems with it either, and I break the hell out of a rack with that thing.

[dags_lax]

I would try the both the Dufferin and the old Mali and use which ever one breaks the hardest. And if that is the Dufferin I would't be worrying about the improbable event of having the wood split. And even if it does, what the heck. New cues are being made every day.

[Tigershark]

I break with a heavier cue as well. I'm a relatively big man, so having the power and feel of an over-20 oz stick just seems better than a lighter one. Having a fast break means that much more power, ie. F=MA. Experimentation is the best way to judge for yourself.

Sometimes when I break, a ball will fly in so fast you can't blink or you'll miss it. But break cue weight is a matter of personal preference. Johnny Archer has a mean break, although he's not the biggest man in pool. He has superb stroke mechanics and knows how to direct all of his body weight into his break. I would guess he does better with a lighter cue, but who knows.

Honestly, there's been a lot of fuss over the 'best' break cue lately. I have one, but I consider a run-of-the-mill dufferin house cue with a good tip and no warpage to be great break cue...really! My break cue sits in my case to be used when I can't grab a suitable cue off the rack. I imagine the house would charge me less to replace one of their banger sticks than mine; I hit pretty hard.

[txplshrk]

There are very few people that agree with us on the heavy cue. The thing is that I know I like it, and that is all that matters to me. I have just the right technique for my break stick, so it is exactly what I like.

[dags_lax]

Having a fast break means that much more power, ie. F=MA


I addressed this once before and while the above formula is correct, in the context of this discussion, it measures the wrong thing. What we need to know is the energy in a moving object.

To find the energy in a moving object you need use the following formula.

KE=.5*M*V*V

Kinetic energy equals one half the mass of the object multiplied times the velocity squared.

The key is to use the heaviest cue you can that doesn't sacrifice cue speed.

Other factors, such as and the compression/flex characteristics of the tip, ferrule and shaft will affect how much of this energy is imparted to the cue ball.

One can see from this formula that even a very modest increase in the velocity of the cue will more than offset a slight decrease in mass.

A Volkswagen at 70 mph has more energy than a than a Cadillac at 60 mph. Baseball and softball bats, tennis rackets, golf clubs all are using technology to get lighter.

[DZ314]

Having a fast break means that much more power, ie. F=MA


I addressed this once before and while the above formula is correct, in the context of this discussion, it measures the wrong thing. What we need to know is the energy in a moving object.

To find the energy in a moving object you need use the following formula.

KE=.5*M*V*V

Kinetic energy equals one half the mass of the object multiplied times the velocity squared.

The key is to use the heaviest cue you can that doesn't sacrifice cue speed.

Other factors, such as and the compression/flex characteristics of the tip, ferrule and shaft will affect how much of this energy is imparted to the cue ball.

One can see from this formula that even a very modest increase in the velocity of the cue will more than offset a slight decrease in mass.

A Volkswagen at 70 mph has more energy than a than a Cadillac at 60 mph. Baseball and softball bats, tennis rackets, golf clubs all are using technology to get lighter.

"One can see from this formula that even a very modest increase in the velocity of the cue will more than offset a slight decrease in mass." - This is the key right here. :D

[txplshrk]

The key is to use the heaviest cue you can that doesn't sacrifice cue speed.

So if you can swing a 28.5 the way most people swing an 18.5, then you have just added a lot more power, in theory.

I look at it this way too. If your going to drive a metal stake into the ground and the metal stake is approximately 4 ft in length. Do you want a 8lb sledge hammer? Or would you rather have a 16lb sledge? If you can swing the 16lb sledge then the sledge hammer will do most of the work for you. If you can swing a 16lb sledge as fast as someone else with an 8lb sledge then look out! Cause you have the weight of the sledge combined with the speed.

Yes the formula you have up there works, and yes all other sports are going to lighter, and lighter. Like Golf, Baseball, Tennis, etc.

But there is one major differance here. I don't know about anyone else, but a lot of people rest their break cue on the table rail, and then brace it with there bridge hand. Your not swinging the cue free air like you are in the other sports.

Like I said earlier, I swing my stick as fast as a lot of people swing a light stick. I am not saying that a light stick doesn't work better for them. I am just saying the heavier works for me. Plus for whatever reason I have more control over the heavier stick. Not saying everyone will though.

When you look at 18 - 28 ounces it is a lot different than a volkswagon to a Cadillac. It is more like a Volkswagon compared to a Mack Truck. I don't care who you are if a Volkswagon is rolling 50mph and a Mack Truck is rolling 40mph I don't want to get hit buy the Mack Truck at all!!!

This whole thing is easily put to rest like this though. If you like a heavy stick for breaking, and you get good breaks from it, then why change? If you like a light stick for breaking, and you get good breaks from it then why change?

In this sport it is all about what you get used to and what you like. No body in here can argue with that. I don't care if you have the best sticks and you follow all the so called fundamentals. Everyone in here can still be beat by someone with a house cue. It just depends on who is shooting with the house cue! LOL

[dags_lax]

If you can swing a 16lb sledge as fast as someone else with an 8lb sledge

Bad analogy. What would be your choice when trying to drive a spike that is above your head?

If you can swing a heavy stick as fast as a light one more power to you. Most players can't.

[txplshrk]

The key is to use the heaviest cue you can that doesn't sacrifice cue speed.

I keep refering to that because that is the most important quote I have seen in here. The heaviest cue that you can use that doesn't sacrifice cue speed. For every individual out there this is going to be different!!!

So my sledge hammer theory is a bad example?
Well lets see are you kneeling or sitting when breaking?

The answer to that is no. So if I am driving in something that is above my head with a sledge then the whole situation changes. Same as if you were breaking from a sitting possition.

Yes I understand some people can't swing a heavy stick as fast, but there are others that can. Just like there are some people that can swing a 16lb sledge as fast as some can with an 8lb.

Again it all comes back to what you like, and what you can break with the best.

For every individual this is going to vary some because we are not all the same.

So for everyone that says the best is the lightest you can find or the heaviest you can find, etc...............Then they are wrong. It is what ever you personally can break with the best.

I break the best with my heavy cue. Period! If you break great with your lighter cue then great. I am happy for you.

[skor]

Let's say that you can swing a heavy cue as fast as the next guy can swing a light cue, wouldn't that mean that you can swing a lighter cue even faster and get even a faster break??????

In my opinion (as I wrote so many times before....) one of the reasons that this sport is not going anywhere is because there are too many federations and too many different rules and everyone is doing what they feel like, if the world standardized rules by the WPA, that are the same as the BCA, the EPBF, the AAPA, the APBU, the CPB and the OPBA rules say that you can't use a heavier cue then 25oz then not only that you shouldn't use one but it shouldn't even be produced....

[txplshrk]

It is going to be hard to prevent that, being that so many custom cue manufacturer's out there will build you anything you want. Other sports have rules too, but it doesn't stop people from using something else. The rules are there for the games that matter, if they are honest then they abide by the rules. Therefore I have my 24.5 ounce for the tournaments that I can't use my 28.5 ounce in.

Yes, Skor in theory I should be able to swing an 18 or 17 or lighter even faster than my 28.5 or even my 24.5 ounce. The problem is I don't feel I have as much control with it. So for me I prefer the heavier one for the more consistent break. I guess if I wanted to change my technique a bit and learn with lighter one I could do so. The thing is that I am happy with my break, and I don't want to change it. So why should I change it?

[Tigershark]

When you kill the rock, make it jump in the air before it crashes down and send balls flying, and the guy at the next table exclaims "Nice break!", how is your choice of stick wrong, heavy or light...? Me, I like the feel of a heavier cue's penetration on follow through, and I just don't get that same sense of power from a lighter one. What's the difference if you have control and focus? That's the real key folks.

As a lightweight fighter, step into the ring with a fast heavyweight and you will get SCHOOLED.

[audiopro]

As a lightweight fighter, step into the ring with a fast heavyweight and you will get SCHOOLED.

No comment...

[skor]

I've used txplshrk's 28.5oz break cue and this is what happened....... 8) 8)

[audiopro]

Yikes! I would not have thought that was even possible, but wow!! You have one helluva swing skor!!

[txplshrk]

LOL your a funny guy Skor............that is a cool pic.

[Bygjerry]

Dude you don't have to kill the rock at all to get a good break. I mean what is a stroke really? All it is is a transfer of energy from a stick to a piece of plastic PERIOD. Cue ball weighs 6 oz cue stick 18 oz BAM...hit it and quit it. You sacrifice form and control when trying to create all of this power...I rather have great form and let my stroke produce results. :twisted:

[txplshrk]

Another Texas fella, where you from man?

[DEATHTRON]

Im thinking hes a bit further south of me somewhere...say houston or somewhere there abouts...Im probably really wrong, but thats what memory is telling me.

Zach

[txplshrk]

That's Cool Zach, how long you lived up in Dallas? My wife lived up there for a spell, but she been down here in Corpus for about 3 years now.

I originally grew up between Midland and San Angelo.

[DEATHTRON]

Ive been here what...15 years now? For all intensive purposes, Texas is home for me.

Zach

[DZ314]

Thread-jackers. :lol:

[skor]

I mean what is a stroke really?

Dude, you do NOT want to start that debate all over again.....
All I can say is that different people have different ideas regarding the definition of the term "stroke" (in billiards)...... 8) :twisted: 8) :twisted:

[showboat]

i have an old mali that i was going to make into a break cue.
i am now getting a new stick and with this stick comes a dufferin sneaky pete.i was told the dufferin would make a better break cue.now i'm told that might not be so because of it being a wood to wood joint.the issue being the wood might split.

what are you guy' thoughts?
I've been using a sneaky pete to break with forever and I haven't split nothing yet...

[nathar]

I personally don't like the heavyweight fighter, or the Mack truck analogy. What happens on the break depends on the speed at which the cb hits the rack, not necessarily the force which hits the cb. As I believe someone said on another thread, those anologies are more applicable if you are trying to shatter the cb. To make those analogies apply in this discussion you would have to liken the argument to using a bowling ball rather than a cue ball. The only way to increase the force into the rack is to apply more speed to the cb. How that applies to cue mechanics I'm not sure, but the weight factor disapears after the cb leaves the tip.

[Great8]

Anyone using the energy equation E= .5*m*v^2 and inserting the mass of the cue for m is using the wrong formula. How are you accounting for the input of force from your body, I believe you keep pushing as you strike the cue ball, no??? The energy transferred to the rack is .5*(mass of cue ball)*(velocity of cue ball)^2.

Here is the true answer:

Apply as much FORCE as possible to the cue ball. This will maximize it's acceleration towards the rack. When the cue ball finishes accelerating ( separates from the cue tip), the velocity at this point is what goes into the energy equation. Therefore the more force M*A you can apply to the cue ball, the better the break.

[mechmat]

Anyone using the energy equation E= .5*m*v^2 and inserting the mass of the cue for m is using the wrong formula. How are you accounting for the input of force from your body, I believe you keep pushing as you strike the cue ball, no??? The energy transferred to the rack is .5*(mass of cue ball)*(velocity of cue ball)^2.

Here is the true answer:

Apply as much FORCE as possible to the cue ball. This will maximize it's acceleration towards the rack. When the cue ball finishes accelerating ( separates from the cue tip), the velocity at this point is what goes into the energy equation. Therefore the more force M*A you can apply to the cue ball, the better the break.

The energy equation can be used, you just have to remember to account for conservation of energy. You can also assume the force applied by the movement of your body is constant, regardless of the weight of the cue, since the weight of the cue is insignificant compared to the weight of your body. Also, if you want to do a comparison of a cue's break power relative to it's weight you would not move your body. The force applied by the body then becomes insignificant or zero.

So what you get is....

.5*m*v^2 (cue before the hit) = .5*m*v^2 (cue after hit) + .5*m*v^2 (cue ball after hit)

So as you said, the energy after contact is the only part that matters as far as how hard the ball hits the rack. And the only way to increase that energy is to increase the energy that the cue has before the hit.

[dags_lax]

Apply as much FORCE as possible to the cue ball. This will maximize it's acceleration towards the rack

Let's assume for the purpose of illustration two different scenarios. First, using a regular cue, you strike the cue ball with all you got and it thunders into the rack. Second scenario: Using a cue that weighs 150 pounds you strike the cue ball with all you got and the cue ball trickles down the table. The same force different results.

Force and energy (kinetic energy in the case of objects in motion (such as pool balls and pool cues) are two different things. Set a bowling ball and a pool ball on a table and the kinetic energy is the same even though the force acting on them 16 pounds and six ounces respectively.

[skor]

I've never taken a calculator to shoot pool nor did I ever stoped before a shot and started to insert data into equations.....

I get a better break from a lighter cue :!: that's what counts not the math behind it.... if you'll take that math to any pro pool player in the world, they would not have a clue about what you are talking about....
So all the best players say they get a better break from a light cue, are you going to listen to them? or go with your math....

[DZ314]

Maybe someday I will use a radar gun to measure the speed of the cb when I break with a 18oz cue. I will then add weight to the same cue and measure the speeds again. I imagine I will get faster speeds with the cue at 18oz, but the radar gun will have to say for sure.

[skor]

Forget all about that, use for one season at league a 20oz cue and one season with an 18oz cue, USE THE SAME TIP (brand and hardness) and let us know after two seasons what's better for you.

[dags_lax]

I believe Robert Byrne proved the advantage of light cue without a radar gun. He took the end rail off the table and shot the ball off the table onto a bed of sand. The ball went farther with the lighter cue.

[audiopro]

For what it is worth, unless he is using a robotic arm precisely calibrated to hit with the exact same amount of effort each time, that test is worthless.

[txplshrk]

All I know is this, find what works for you and stay with it. I break better with a heavy cue. I pocket more balls, and leave the table more open for a run out. So to me this is the best method for me. If you get better results with a lighter one then why change? This arguement will go on all day, over and over. It doesn't matter what anyone else uses, cause everyone is different.

[dags_lax]

For what it is worth, unless he is using a robotic arm precisely calibrated to hit with the exact same amount of effort each time, that test is worthless

In as much as human beings are imperfect the same could be said of any test that involves a person performing a task. Granted it was an unscientific test but every bit as revealing as as Skor's suggestion of breaking with a light cue for one season and then trying a heavier cue. The same thing could be said for using a radar gun for a test. Whatever the method one chooses, even with an imperfect human at the cue, given a reasonable number of attempts a conclusion can be drawn with a fair degree of certainty.

[DZ314]

For what it is worth, unless he is using a robotic arm precisely calibrated to hit with the exact same amount of effort each time, that test is worthless

In as much as human beings are imperfect the same could be said of any test that involves a person performing a task. Granted it was an unscientific test but every bit as revealing as as Skor's suggestion of breaking with a light cue for one season and then trying a heavier cue. The same thing could be said for using a radar gun for a test. Whatever the method one chooses, even with an imperfect human at the cue, given a reasonable number of attempts a conclusion can be drawn with a fair degree of certainty.

That is true, it doesn't take a perfect experiment to come to a plausible conclusion.

[audiopro]

No, but it does at least take consistency. If this tst was only done a few times, it proves nothing. IMO you would have to perform each test at least 50 times, and average it out, to get anything that might be consistent.

[Spud]

There was a guy at our VNEA state tournament this year with a radar gun. He charged $1 a try or $5 for 6 tries with a cash prize given out to the fastest break in each age group everyday. I had a go at it in the 50+ group. Not that I think my break is fast, I just wanted to know what it was. My 1st try was my normal break, just good solid contact 19.7. After that I really tried to crank it. My fastest break was 19.7 I'm well aware thats nothing to write home about, but was surprised at how slow I really was. I would love to be able to take it home for a few days to experiment with it.