Draw shots

Any pointers? My draw shots are pretty weak. The cue ball draws about 3 to 4 diamonds length average and very inconsistent, and somtimes not at all. But there are moments when it draws 6 to 8 diamonds length and I really don't think it has to do with how hard I hit the CB. Any advice..

[audiopro]

Follow through is very key to a good draw stroke. Don't concentrate on trying to whack the crap out of the ball, rather focus on your follow through, and smoothness of your stroke.

Follow through is very key to a good draw stroke. Don't concentrate on trying to whack the crap out of the ball, rather focus on your follow through, and smoothness of your stroke.

Good advice.

[dags_lax]

Assuming you are talking about different results on the same shot your problem is one of two or a combination of those two things: 1) inconsistent speed, 2) not consistently hitting the cue ball in the same place.

[nathar]

The amount of draw has a few different variables.

1: One is where you address the cb. You can obtain various levels of draw depending on where your tip strikes the cb below center. IE: 1 tip below center, 1.5 tips below center or even lower.

2: The speed of your stroke.

3: The quality of your stroke and follow through.

4: The hardness of your tip.

Not necessarily in this order. It's also important to note that you can achieve similar results in different ways. If for say you stroke the cb 2 tips below center with a soft stroke, you can replicate the same shot by hitting the cb 1 tip below center with a slightly harder stroke. It just depends on what you're comfortable with and what the situation calls for. 8)

[dags_lax]

The quality of your stroke and follow through.

The cue ball reacts to the force and the direction of the hit. A good stroke and follow through have nothing to do with the behavior of the cue ball.

[spartan]

Make sure your cue is as level as possible.

These are all good points. Some I knew and some I didn't really care to think about until you guys brought it up. I been working on jump shots and rail shots last few days and I must say I been quite impressed how much I improved. My next drill is my draw which I plan to work on it until I can perfect it or near perfection, because it's one of the shots that are imperative to a game. And as you know, it's something that may takes months or years or never...lool All good pointers!!

[mechmat]

I taught a couple of my APA teammates (both were weak 3's at the time) to draw the ball in about 30 seconds. I told them to hit the ball a tip below center and follow through without telling them I wanted them to draw the ball and ta-da, they were pulling it back before they knew it. I think once you get over the "draw shots are hard" attitude some beginners tend to have and focus on the mechanics of making a proper draw it's a snap.

Good luck and have fun!

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[skor]

If it comes back to a side and not straight, it means that you applyed side spin, you should work on finding the center of the cue ball, start by shooting soft a tip bellow center and follow through and then step by step lower the tip and then shoot harder

[jkregan]

I have to strenuously disagree with you Dags. Stroke and follow through are very important.

A good stroke breeds consistency and a proper follow through assures that you will stroke straight through the ball.

[audiopro]

I have to strenuously disagree with you Dags. Stroke and follow through are very important.

A good stroke breeds consistency and a proper follow through assures that you will stroke straight through the ball.

Yeah, I am having trouble believing dags posted that.... ???? :?

[dags_lax]

The cue ball reacts to the force and the direction of the hit. A good stroke and follow through have nothing to do with the behavior of the cue ball.

The cue ball is on the tip for only the tinniest fraction of a second and is long gone before the cue has even moved an inch on the follow through. What you do with the cue once the cue ball is off the tip is irrelevant. Whether immediately after, or five minutes later, The cue ball is going to do what it is going to do. If that were not the case than a shot with spin could never be executed where the opportunity to follow through is limited.

As for the stroke there is only one Mike Massey but there are players without his stroke that play at that level. In fact there are players playing at that level whose stroke you wouldn't want to teach a beginner.

The cue ball doesn't know what your stroke is like, if you follow through or not. The cue ball doesn't know if you have a goofy stance that keeps you off balance. The cue ball doesn’t know if you grip the cue as if you didn't have an opposable thumb. The cue ball reacts as it does because of the forces applied to it, not the method used to facilitate the application of those forces.

Now with all that being said a "proper" stroke, follow through, grip, and stance all combine to make it easier to strike the cue ball with the tip of the cue in such a manner that will produce the desired results on a consistent basis. But for anyone to say that those things actually affects why the cue ball does what it does is just plain wrong.

It is important to understand this because there are going to be many times where it is just not possible to have perfect mechanics but yet the shot can be executed with the desired results. To attribute magical qualities to the proper mechanics only creates a mindset that will predispose you to failure when this type of situation arises.

[skor]

Why does a soft tip provides more spin?
because while contacting the cue ball, the tip is compressed against the cue ball and a softer tip compress more, there for it stays longer on the cue ball.
You can understand from that that the amount of time the tip is touching the cue ball is longer then you might think.
The pure purpose of follow through is make sure that you'll hit the point on the cue that you aimed at and that you'll hit it at the spee you wanted to hit it, if you don't follow through then you are actualy slowing down before contact, just like when you hit the breaks on your cars it takes time before you stop but during that time you're slowing down, instead of driving through and hitting the obstacle at full speed.
In order to get the cue ball to draw back a certain distance, you'll need to hit the cue ball in a certain speed, only following trough will make sure that you're hitting the CB at the right speed.

BTW If you would like to see what I mean regarding the amount of time the tip stays on the CB, watch the video in the next link
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-76_Austrian_HSV.wmv

[audiopro]

The cue ball reacts to the force and the direction of the hit. A good stroke and follow through have nothing to do with the behavior of the cue ball.

The cue ball is on the tip for only the tinniest fraction of a second and is long gone before the cue has even moved an inch on the follow through. What you do with the cue once the cue ball is off the tip is irrelevant. Whether immediately after, or five minutes later, The cue ball is going to do what it is going to do. If that were not the case than a shot with spin could never be executed where the opportunity to follow through is limited.

As for the stroke there is only one Mike Massey but there are players without his stroke that play at that level. In fact there are players playing at that level whose stroke you wouldn't want to teach a beginner.

The cue ball doesn't know what your stroke is like, if you follow through or not. The cue ball doesn't know if you have a goofy stance that keeps you off balance. The cue ball doesn’t know if you grip the cue as if you didn't have an opposable thumb. The cue ball reacts as it does because of the forces applied to it, not the method used to facilitate the application of those forces.

Now with all that being said a "proper" stroke, follow through, grip, and stance all combine to make it easier to strike the cue ball with the tip of the cue in such a manner that will produce the desired results on a consistent basis. But for anyone to say that those things actually affects why the cue ball does what it does is just plain wrong.

It is important to understand this because there are going to be many times where it is just not possible to have perfect mechanics but yet the shot can be executed with the desired results. To attribute magical qualities to the proper mechanics only creates a mindset that will predispose you to failure when this type of situation arises.

Yeah, I definitely disagree here. To me it is like saying when you throw a punch, what you do leading up to, and afterwards, makes no difference on the point of contact. When in fact, proper form before contact, and aiming to go through your opponent and not just stopping at the point of contact, will yield a much stronger blow.

And as for mechanics, look at people like Karen Corr, or Allison Fisher. Their mechanics are exactly the same on 99% of the shots they make. So for you to say you can not perform the same mechanics many times, is wrong in my opinion.

[dags_lax]

I like the video Skor linked to. It reinforces my point. It appears that the cue ball is off the tip after traveling the distance of about the depth of one tip. How does what happens with the cue after the cue ball leaves the tip affect the cue ball is beyond me. Whether you pull up on the follow through, follow through two feet, or do Vincentts Werewolves of London samurai stuff. It all has the same effect as body english.

As an academic exercise let me offer up this for an example in the extreme. If the balls are set right you can do this shot without almost no follow through. Grip the butt of the cue with the ring finger and point your index and ring finger straight down. Now position self such that when you follow through you’re your fingers will hit the edge of the table and stop with almost no follow through. But because the cue ball is already off the tip by the time the follow through stops the cue ball behaves just as if you did the shot the way they draw it up in the textbook. Now it has been a years since I have done this and I don’t remember if my fingers are long enough to do this with draw but I know it works with side.

Skor I am sure with all your experience you have put the desired spin on the cue ball without have room for the follow through that you normally would use. In my own experience has been that it's doable, just more difficult.

As for Karen and Allison I would certainly dispute the 99% claim. But regardless of the percentages there are instances, a long stretch shot for example, where it is just physically impossible for them to have the same mechanics they would on the majority of their shots. The point being even with out perfect mechanics they can execute the shot and get the desired results.

The throwing a punch example, it's apples and oranges. The fist is in contact with the target for a much longer duration in some instance the length of the punch.

Perhaps I should have put my original posting a bit differently, something like this:

The cue ball reacts to the force and the direction of the hit. A good stroke and follow through have nothing to do with the behavior of the cue ball. But a good stroke and follow through has a lot to do with a players ability to hit the cue ball in the proper direction with the proper force.

[audiopro]

IThe throwing a punch example, it's apples and oranges. The fist is in contact with the target for a much longer duration in some instance the length of the punch.

I'm not sure it's apples and oranges. It depends on what you are hitting, does it move, give way, or break?

Take breaking a board for example... When I punch through a board, my hand is in contact for a fraction of a second. However, if I were to stop at point of contact, the board would probably not break. If I follow through, guess what... It breaks...

Heck, for one of my black belt tests we had to break a board with a single finger, basically poking through the board. Pretty similiar to a cue tip hitting a ball... Yes the time is minute, but it can make a difference if you follow through.

[Neil Fujiwara]

Did you remember to chalk your finger first?

[audiopro]

Darn't no... That would have been cool, cause then you could see exactly where ya hit... ha ha.. I'll have to try that!

[dags_lax]

It is not the follow through that breaks the board but the force that you hit the board with. Once the board is broken does it matter how much you follow through? Say you put the board two feet in front of you and you break it now put the board back two inches and break it. Your follow through is two inches less. Keep doing this and the follow through keeps getting less.

Ever play croquet? Put your ball next to your opponents step on your ball and hit your ball with the mallet. Zilch for follow through but except for the energy absorbed by your ball your opponents goes just like as if you were striking the ball normally with a good follow through.

Let’s give another pool example. Same shot, same speed the only variable being whether we hit a stop or follow shot. The cue ball follows through on one shot but not the other but what happens to the object ball is the same in both instances. There is a cause and effect relationship only for the period that the two balls are in contact. The same holds true for the relationship between the tip of the cue and the cue ball.

[skor]

Dags, I want to clear out something; what ever happens after the cue ball leaves the tip will NOT change anything just like you say

BUTas I said before you can NOT bring the movment of the cue to a full stop in a friction of a second, you decelerate to a stop, now if you hit the cue ball with the intention of stoping your movment a foot beyond the spot where the OB was resting then you'll hit the OB with more speed then you would if you're going to stop the cue 5 inches beyond the same point, that is why when you see pro players you'll see the CB run like crazy but you'll hardly hear the sound of the impact betwwen the cue and the cue ball.
So you can say that hitting the cue ball harder without following through is the same then hitting softer and following through, because of the deceleration BUT it's not the same because when you "punch" the CB the tip slides on the CB and the CB will deflect a bit and the shot will be less accurate.
Again following through is not to creat a magic response after the CB left the tip but to make sure that during the impact you'll hit the CB at the right speed with less effort, with less deflection and to make the shot more accurate.

I hope that this makes sence to you and if not then so be it....
BTW do you follow through on your shots or do you "punch" the CB when you shoot?
I do not gamble but I'll take any action from a "puncher".....

[audiopro]

It is not the follow through that breaks the board but the force that you hit the board with. Once the board is broken does it matter how much you follow through? Say you put the board two feet in front of you and you break it now put the board back two inches and break it. Your follow through is two inches less. Keep doing this and the follow through keeps getting less.

It is the concept of following through that creates the force. You are skating around my point. If you were to stop your punch, at that exact split second you contacted the board, it would not break. You have to go through the board... Not just to the board...

[DZ314]

Stroke it, don't poke it. You gotta hit through it, not at it.

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[spartan]

Stroke it, don't poke it. You gotta hit through it, not at it.

I'm sorry Cory, is this pool related? :lol:

[DZ314]

Stroke it, don't poke it. You gotta hit through it, not at it.

I'm sorry Cory, is this pool related? :lol:

Haha, get your mind outta the gutter and you can see that it is! :lol:

[spartan]

Im sorry I couldnt resist.

[dags_lax]

My last post on this subject. Is that a collective sigh of relief that I hear? :D

Shots where my follow through stops to the point where it is practically non existent, such as to avoid a foul when the cue ball is close to the object ball, jump shots, and masses, the cue ball reacts as if it has spin on it. But that must just be my imagination.

I guess my point is being missed. While a very basic understanding of the underlying physics of the game is not necessary to play at even the highest levels it doesn't hurt. I never said a good stroke or follow through is bad or unnecessary. It is in fact desirable. I believe that what I said is that is not what creates the draw. But everybody seems to disagree with me so I concede the point. I am wrong. I should have checked with Mrs. Dags first.

[Neil Fujiwara]

I don't know if this hurts or helps the thread, but when I shoot a power shot, regardless of if it's top or bottom English I think of the cue ball as something that is almost nonexistant. The only thing that I am concentrating on is accelerating the cue to a certain point past the cue ball.

[DZ314]

Like with the golf swing, the ball just happens to be in the way. That is the best way to think about the swing/stroke.

My last post on this subject. Is that a collective sigh of relief that I hear? :D

Shots where my follow through stops to the point where it is practically non existent, such as to avoid a foul when the cue ball is close to the object ball, jump shots, and masses, the cue ball reacts as if it has spin on it. But that must just be my imagination.

I guess my point is being missed. While a very basic understanding of the underlying physics of the game is not necessary to play at even the highest levels it doesn't hurt. I never said a good stroke or follow through is bad or unnecessary. It is in fact desirable. I believe that what I said is that is not what creates the draw. But everybody seems to disagree with me so I concede the point. I am wrong. I should have checked with Mrs. Dags first.

For the record, I completely agree with you. So not everybody disagrees with you.

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[txplshrk]

Well I have to say that follow through deffinatly makes for a better draw shot. I have been working a lot on my stroke, and I found that to draw I used to use more of a quick poke at the ball. The end result to me was the same. I drew the ball, and it looked good. Now that I am getting better with my stroke, and more consistent I have found that I can draw the ball the entire length of the table (without even meaning too sometimes). What did I change? I now follow through the ball like all my other strokes, and I draw the ball with a lot less effort, and much more consistent. I would have to agree with 99% of the people in here and say that the draw is much more controlable, and consistent, and even longer if you follow through. While it can be achived with another method it doesn't mean that it is better than the follow through.

[Black_Cat_5791]

I should have piped in on this one long ago. With a proper follow through you will achieve a greater amount of english period, be it top, bottom, or side, TL, TR, LL, LR. With less force.

A punch stroke can deliver the appropriate results, but usually that short stroke is unpredictable because it's hard to control the power applied.

The Monk talks about this in his series.

Black Cat 8)