Mail Order?

[virtualdavid]

I just purchased a Lucasi L-E14 and love it. In my case, I visited Capitol Billard in Sacramento and paid $295. When confronted with hundreds or thousands of cues to choose from, the owner, Bill, explained the only way to buy a stick is to handle it. "You'll know when you've picked up the right one for you" (in all honesty, I was buying the stick for its glitz more than "its handle". I figured if I paid a couple hundred or more it had to be a good choice).

Bill's argument sounds logical. But, if it was valid, how do all the online stores stay in business?

[skor]

It's cheaper to buy on-line!!!
also you can walk into a store or a pool room and "handle" the cue and then buy it on-line

Thanks, skor. In your guestimate, what percentage of people who buy a cue online have first gone to a brick and mortar stick to make their decision?

Also, In my case (read my post under Lucasi cues, "Lucasi 309"), the stick I picked couldn't be matched with an actual model number sold online. I wonder if this is a common problem.

[dags_lax]

also you can walk into a store or a pool room and "handle" the cue and then buy it on-line

To walk into a store and take advantage of a salesrep’s time & expertise and the owners investment in inventory knowing full well that you will be purchasing online is tantamount to stealing in my book.

Research online, get opinions from forums such as this and purchase on line and if you are not happy with the item return it.

[skor]

if you walk into a store to check a tv and a salesrep tells you all the specs and whatever, does that mean that you have to buy from him????
I'm into comparing prices and buying where it's cheapest!!!
I won't but a tv at the first store I walk into, I'll check a few stores and buy where I think it's in my best interest.
Same goes to any other product including pool cues.
If I walk into a store and see a product I like and I know that I can get it cheaper somewhere else I'll offer the store to match that price!
I've done it before and I'll do it again, it is not stealing it's business!!

[Neil Fujiwara]

There are plenty of reasons to buy through either channel, it really depends on the goods being purchased.

[dags_lax]

WHEN YOU KNOW FULL WELL THAT YOU WILL BE PURCHAING ELSEWHERE!

Although you don't walk out of the store with anything material you have taken time from the salesrep.

Years ago when I used to work part time as a computer repair tech people were always try pick my brain to diagnose their problems for them. Then they would take it to the bozos at Best Buy or repair the problem themselves. And since a portion of my renumeration was based on billable hours I obviously didn't get paid for those hours. And it was note only my time they were also taking from me and the owner. They were also taking advantage of the investment in my training. And while the person may have only taken my time and training to save him money that time that was taken from me resulted in less pay for me. You may not think that that is stealing but for a person whose time is money might think differently. The problem got to be so pervasive that the owner said now more advice without a work order that included a basic diagnostic fee.

When we look at this forum I have often rallied against people trying to sell items on this forum. And others have agreed with this. They realize that Seybert's has made an investment in this forum and for others to take advantage of that investment for thier own financial gain at Seybert's expense is wrong.

[audiopro]

But just to clarify dags, your time was not stolen, it was given. You would have been in every right to tell them, if you would like for me to help diagnose your problem, you can pay me. You chose not to ask, for whatever reason, yet you still gave them your knowledge. That is not stealing...

[dags_lax]

Greg: There is the expectation of the possibility of getting the work. I realize that I would not always get the work but for the person to who holds out the possibility that I may get the work by coming into the shop and asking questions, when they KNOW FULL WELL they never had any intention of giving me the work, resulted in a reduced paycheck. And while it may not be stealing in legal terms they have taken money from my paycheck which to me is the moral equivalent of stealing.

If I were to knowingly mislead a customer with a false expectation of a low repair bill and then after I have gotten the work told them the real cost in the hope that I would still get the job at the higher cost I would be crucified.

Why is it that business owners, sales reps, service persons ….. are supposed to act in an ethical manner and the customers aren't? I have yet to figure that one out.

[audiopro]

Yeah, I definitely understand your point, and I think it is valid. What it comes down to is wanting to do what's best for number 1, yourself.

I am probably guilty of something similiar at least a couple times in life, but in defense of your point, I will not shop at Walmart, and will rather go to the little guy. I do indeed pay more, and it is me who is losing out in general, but I would much rather put my money into the people, rather than into a single person. Shopping at places like Wally World, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer...

[dags_lax]

I don’t mean to denigrate on line or mail order shopping. I do it my self.


Let’s take this example out for discussion. Your local stereo store offers a two week in home speaker trial. Now you know that they have them sale priced at $1200 but you can get them from a internet retailer for $1000. Unfortunately that internet dealer drop ships them and all sales are final. You also know that the local stereo store will service and honor the warranty even if the item was purchased elsewhere. Now you know that internet dealers such as this have very low expenses that allow them to work on very thin profit margins. And you are also savvy enough to know that a brick and mortar store staffed with knowledgeable people cost more to operate than an internet store with an online automated purchasing system.

Now you take the local stereo store up on their two week trial and at the end of the trial you take the speakers back and say that you can get them from Fly By Night Internet Sales for $1000 but if they will match the price you will buy from them, the local stereo store. They say that a $50 margin doesn’t cover their expenses so you buy from Fly By Night.

You knew in your heart that the local store was not going to be able to compete on price so if you liked those speakers after two weeks you would be making your purchase online.

You got the best price and what you have done is not illegal but is it right? Opinions?

[DEATHTRON]

Its WRONG to do that in my opinion, happens all the time at the hockey store I work at. People come in, take up an hour of my time, I size them for all hockey equipment, tell them everything they need to know, then they tell me they are going to order off the internet. Its a very frustrating feeling, because what they did was not wrong, but they basically used you.

Zach

[dags_lax]

What it comes down to is wanting to do what's best for number 1, yourself.

Often times doing what is best for number one has unintended consequences. Especially when multiplies by the action of millions of people doing the same thing. Wal-Mart is a perfect example of that.

[skor]

How many times have you entered a store and the sales rep jumps all over you "trying to help" ????
it happens every time, do you know why?? because they don't want to miss a sale, they tell us that this is what is known as great service....
when that sales rep comes up to you, he wants to sell you something, can he know for sure if he will sell or not?? no he doesn't, he doesn't even expect to, he knows that out of 100 sales pitches he'll sell only a % of that 100 and the reason is irrelevant.
In this day and age if a regular store wants to survive they have to either match the internet price or give us the consumers something extra that we won't get on-line.
I bought a TV about a year ago, I made my research on-line (for specs and price) and then I went to a store, the sales rep tried to get me to buy something else but at the end he understood that I know what I want, we we talked about the price, I showed him the price I could get on-line and asked him to match that price, when I he told me that he couldn't, I turned to walk out, needless to say that I was stoped and got the internet price (I did buy the TV from him).

As for your example as a tech, I did that, this is what I call great service because if it's a minor repair that the guy can do by him self, he'll be happy with you and next time when he couldn't handle it, he will come to you.
As for the speakers example, stores do that because the statistic says that once you get it into your house it's unlikely that you'll return it, of course it's not the case all the time, but it is all taken into consideration, it's their way to sell something that you can get cheaper somewhere else.

When I got my Predator cue, I went into a store and asked if they had any, at that time, I lookd like a bum not like someone who can spend over $400 for a cue, but still I got a good service and I got to "handle" the cue for about an hour on the store table, that's service!!!

[dags_lax]

As for the speakers example, stores do that because the statistic says that once you get it into your house it's unlikely that you'll return it, of course it's not the case all the time, but it is all taken into consideration, it's their way to sell something that you can get cheaper somewhere else.



To say that something is built into the cost of the item doesn't mean that that something is okay. Stores build into their selling price the cost of shoplifting and employee theft.

If I go to our local Best Buy and while my wife is looking to possibly buy a new stove and I am standing their drooling at the plasma TVs and a salesman comes up to me and asks to help even though I may be interested in all the technical details I don’t waste a half hour of the sales persons time explaining them to me. I just tell them that I am just looking.

[virtualdavid]

Gee, I didn't mean to start an exercise on ethics. I just want to know if a large percentage of knowledgeable pool players buy cues online, if they've never actually touched the one they're buying. I'm not knowledgeable about cues but it seems to me it's a real gamble to buy online without touching the thing.

I may be in the market for a Predator (I like its glitz). But, if I'm going to spend that much money, would it be wise to touch it first? Or, if I were knowledgeable, should I be able to determin if it fits my needs based on the specifications (e.g., shaft diameter, butt weight, etc.)? Oops....there goes the ethics thing....

[dags_lax]

All those questions we should be able to address right here. And if you are still not happy when you recieve the product Seybert's has a reasonable, 10% restocking fee, return policy on Predator products.

[tk_it_ez]

This can be a tricky situation. I've been on both sides before. I will say that it's not much fun to help a "customer" for an extended amount of time just to have them turn around and buy it over the internet. But at the same time I went to a local shop a couple weeks ago to check out a few cues with the possibility of me buying one on the internet in the back of my mind. The thing is, the local shop wants $500 plus tax for a cue I can get online for $400 plus shipping(no free shipping to Hawaii). So we are talking about a difference of $110-125.

Now that is quite a bit of cash for me to spend for no reason. When I decide what I want I will give the local shop a chance to lower their price but sometimes people will take offense to that. They don't have to match it, I understand they need a markup to stay in business but I won't pay an extra $115. I would much rather do business with the local guy and pay an extra $30 or so for that cue. (Sorry Seybert's, I do feel some loyalty to you too since you provide this great place to learn and talk about pool. But we also have to keep the local guys in business. If I order online it will be from here!)

What do you guys think? Is an extra $30 or so fair? And how do you think the local guy is going to handle me asking for a lower price? The shop is in one of the few pool halls over here so I really don't want any bad feelings from this. Any suggestions from people that have tried to negotiate with a local shop?

[nathar]

In the end what it comes down to is this.

It's your money.
and
Can you make your decision without losing any sleep.

Very few people will know of how you came about the acquisition of your cue unless you tell them. So your conscience will be the only deciding factor in this issue.

I'm not getting into this debate as everybody has some pretty good points and I don't see where I have anything constructive to add. Except that the store I bought my Lucasi at before I found Seybert's offers me free shaft maintenance and a couple of free tip changes. Not to mention that they are really great guys that are very knowledgeable about pool, and always willing to give out pointers on areas of your game that are in need of work.

Having said that: I bought my last cue online. :?

[Rboehme]

I am a retail business owner. I must say that there are times I spend time with customers that have already chosen to buy somewhere else. While this seems to anger some sales people, I consider it practice.

Part of doing business is knowing that you can not sell everyone you talk to. You should never go into a presentation worrying if you are wasting your time. No presentation is a waste of time. You should be happy to have the opportunity to give a presentation. There is always a chance you will sell your product. It is not the customers fault if you can not offer them a better value. If they do not see the value of your expertise, it is because you failed to show it to them. Find out why people are buying elsewhere after they talk to you. It is not always about cost. When it is about cost, you know you failed to show them the added value of doing business with you.

FWIW. I sell custom window coverings. Blinds, shades ect. My customers could use my measurements and mounting specs to buy blinds at Home Depot for less than half of what mine will cost them(and some of them do). That being said, I maintain close to a 70% closing ratio. I never turn down a chance to present my products. Even when the customer states that they will be comparing me to Home depot. When I lose a sale I find out why. Usually it is because I did not do my job as good as I should have. It has never been the customers fault.

The customer is never wasting your time, he/she is giving you their time, and an opportunity to convince them to do business with you.

Case in point, My wife and I recently(last week) went to a local Billiard dealer to look at some cues for her. I had already ordered mine from here. We were planning on looking at them for the sole purpose of ordering from here. We looked at several Viking cues. The salesman was very friendly(even after I told him we were just looking). My wife had a few questions and he answered them(knowing that I had ordered my cue from the internet). He was also aware that cues are much less expensive on the net. The cue my wife wanted was $310 at the local billiard store, it is substantially less here. Instead of saving almost $100 and ordering it here, we purchased it from the local dealer. We will also be ordering a new table from him this spring. We went there with the intent of "wasting" his time. We had no intention of buying anything from him. He had to earn our business.

Does this mean I will only do business with the local guy? Absolutly not. When ever I already know what I want (I have a big list :wink: ) I will order it from here. When ever I need an experts opinion, I will go to the local guy. If he is able to help me, I will buy from him. If he ever makes me feel like his time is too important for me, he will lose my business.

Treat every customer like they are your most important customer (even if you think they are wasting your time). :wink:

This post is much longer than I origionally intended. 8O

[audiopro]

This post is much longer than I origionally intended. 8O

But well said...

[ra[g]e]

Hrm.. I don't have this problem (thankfully), because my local pro shop sells their wares with hardly any markup.. if I include the shipping charges on top of the prices on the internet, my local pro shop generally does better.. and yet they seem to be able to survive.. in fact, they're doing qutie well.

If I had that problem to contend with, I'll simply inform them of the cheaper prices online, offer them a chance to match those better prices or at least reduce the mark-up to a bearable point.. then I'll decide whether to buy online or locally.

A really good sales person can sell an item above the Internet price and the customers will not only be happy but will come back again and bring their friends.

After all, if you are only competing on price selling to a price conscious market, you do not really need exceptional sales skills, do you? You match their price, be polite, and you get the sales 99% of the times. But what if you simply cannot match the price and you are not allowed to offer any discount? Does that mean you have no hope of closing?

The challenge lies in how do you add more value to the product/service that the customers would be willing to pay more than the Internet price, and still feel happy about themsleves, and about dealing with YOU afterwards. It is because the price they pay is still under the preceived value of the product/service. Now, to do this would take some skill.

Marketing is an art and those who excel at this art form would not complain about whose time being stolen. As a matter of fact, if a sales person is really good, he can tell who would buy and who would not, and the customers would feel bad about not buying. A good sales person is like a name brand, those around him will be impressed and remember him.

Not being able to match the price is not a crime. The expense of the store is much higher than that of someone running a business from home. Also, Internet stores buy more in volume sometimes so they have a better discount. It is common sense, and there is nothing wrong with that.

If you are real good, Internet is not a threat, either is price competition.

The threat is only when you do not know your target market, that could be very tricky.