Falcon Over McDermott

Whew, this was a rough couple of weeks researching cues. Comparing these two company's products, and reading user reviews, looks like I am leaning towards Falcon. Posting here because I made several McDermott related posts in the last week or two.

- The McDermott 3/8-10 joint is an issue for me. Falcon has a steel 5/16-14 joint that will last longer than the McDermott stock joint
- Falcon makes almost all of the butts for Predator (albeit Predator has butt spcs that difer from Falcon butt specs)
- Looks wise, McDermott legacy and 2001 series cues I was considering are comparable in looks to the Falcon cues that I am considering in the Whistler and FAL lines
- Tips and ferrels are comparable, as are butt construction.

Only real issues is who makes the better stock shaft: Falcon or McDermott?

[dags_lax]

I have been playing for a lot of years and I don't know of anyone who has problems with the 3/8 X 10 joint, or any other joint where the pin goes directly into the shaft wood. But I will tell you that I have seen a few instances where the metal inserts in the shaft have come loose.

Cross threading and damaging the joint it is not easy to do but it is easier to do with the finer threads on the metal to metal joint. The threads on the 3/8 X 10 Joint are huge.

It wouldn't surprise me if 30% (or more) of the two-piece cues made have a pin that goes right into the shaft. It is a joint that has been around for longer than many of the players on this forum have been alive. If it is a bad joint the market place would have weeded it out a long time ago.

As for McDermott, they offer many cues in their lineup that do not have the 3/8 X 10 joint as the standard joint.

[DZ314]

I don't know where this 3/8x10 steel pin to wood joint concern has come from, and I do not understand it. I have heard more problems with the radial pin joint than the 3/8x10. My cuemaker steered me away from the radial pin due to his experiences with it.

Personally, I hate metal to wood joints because there is a danger of cross-theading... yeah, I know, if I am careful nothing terrible will happen. Better safe than sorry I always say.

One reason Falcon is in the lead in my mind: the butt is a Predator butt. Pop on a 314 for $88, and I'll have a real Predator. Platnum billiards (for example -> http://www.platinumbilliards.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_86&products_id=1000272) will charge $88 for a 314 shaft, and I won't get the original Falcon shaft that comes with the cue.

So for $88 above the cost of any Falcon, I can make it a Predator.

[DZ314]

Personally, I hate metal to wood joints because there is a danger of cross-theading... yeah, I know, if I am careful nothing terrible will happen. Better safe than sorry I always say.

Hogwash, if there was danger in cross threading many more people would have had it happen and the complaints would have gotten to the manufacturers who would have stopped making the joint. How many people have had the 3/8x10 cross-thread that you have actually seen?

Personally, I hate metal to wood joints because there is a danger of cross-theading... yeah, I know, if I am careful nothing terrible will happen. Better safe than sorry I always say.

Hogwash, if there was danger in cross threading many more people would have had it happen and the complaints would have gotten to the manufacturers who would have stopped making the joint. How many people have had the 3/8x10 cross-thread that you have actually seen?

I have seen none that stripped. But I prefer the piece of mind of having metal to metal.

[DZ314]

Personally, I hate metal to wood joints because there is a danger of cross-theading... yeah, I know, if I am careful nothing terrible will happen. Better safe than sorry I always say.

Hogwash, if there was danger in cross threading many more people would have had it happen and the complaints would have gotten to the manufacturers who would have stopped making the joint. How many people have had the 3/8x10 cross-thread that you have actually seen?

I have seen none that stripped. But I prefer the piece of mind of having metal to metal.

Your fear is irrational, but to each their own! :P

[LWW]

DZ I think you are right, but I have the same fear myself!

LWW

[dags_lax]

How many people have had the 3/8x10 cross-thread that you have actually seen?

In 40 years of playing pool I can say none, zero, nada zilch. That is cannot say that about metal pins going into a metal insert. And this is coming from someone who plays with a 5/16 X 14 joint so in this instance bias in favor of what I use is not an issue.

To guest I want to say: Recently there has been a few "guest" posting puting the McDermott company in an unfavorable light. I don't know if those postings are true and I don't know if you are the one doing those postings but your continuing reference to McDermott and the 3/8 X 10pin into the wood shaft as a problematic joint makes me wonder if you are also the "guest poster in the other threads when many other cue makers offer a metal pin directly into the shaft. In fact some of the most highly respected cue makers in the world do not use a metal insert in their shaft. A few that come to mind are Southwest, Cognoscenti, Omega, and Kersenback just to name a few. And when it comes to playability I would take any one of the aforementioned no mater how plane of the most ornate Falcon any day of the week.

How many people have had the 3/8x10 cross-thread that you have actually seen?

In 40 years of playing pool I can say none, zero, nada zilch. That is cannot say that about metal pins going into a metal insert. And this is coming from someone who plays with a 5/16 X 14 joint so in this instance bias in favor of what I use is not an issue.

To guest I want to say: Recently there has been a few "guest" posting puting the McDermott company in an unfavorable light. I don't know if those postings are true and I don't know if you are the one doing those postings but your continuing reference to McDermott and the 3/8 X 10pin into the wood shaft as a problematic joint makes me wonder if you are also the "guest poster in the other threads when many other cue makers offer a metal pin directly into the shaft. In fact some of the most highly respected cue makers in the world do not use a metal insert in their shaft. A few that come to mind are Southwest, Cognoscenti, Omega, and Kersenback just to name a few. And when it comes to playability I would take any one of the aforementioned no mater how plane of the most ornate Falcon any day of the week.

No, I am not the same Guest that bashed McDermott (I think that guy was a troll). In fact, I was the huy that called the other "Guest" on his claim.

I honestly think McDermot makes the BEST looking cues in my price range. And I was set on a McDermott for a few weeks... it was just a matter of choosing a cue that I liked.

Then I noticed the joint, and I had some concerns. Irrational? Probably. I never meant to imply that there are problems with the McDermott joint. But since I did post in the McDermott area, some folks might have gotten that impression. As far as I know, the 3/8-10 joint on McDermott has no issues at all. I have a problem with the joint, be it on McDermott, or any other cue.

So I started lookig at other production cues that were on par with McDermott. Mainly Joss and Falcon. Then I found out Falcon makes the butts for nearly all Predators, so buying a Falcon and a 314 shaft would essentialy make a Predator-like cue, but at a fraction of the cost (at platinum billiards... I'll have to check with Seyberts if they can do the same deal).

So here I am today, looking at Falcon/314 shaft option.

[audiopro]

A few that come to mind are Southwest, Cognoscenti, Omega, and Kersenback just to name a few. And when it comes to playability I would take any one of the aforementioned no mater how plane of the most ornate Falcon any day of the week.

Excuse me!! Forgetting the most important one maybe!?!? Let me fix your post.


A few that come to mind are Southwest, Cognoscenti, Omega, and Kersenback, Nitti just to name a few. And when it comes to playability I would take any one of the aforementioned no mater how plane of the most ornate Falcon any day of the week.

he he, sorry.. Couldn't resisit... :twisted:

But seriously, having had first hand experience with my own Nitti cue for over a year now. And having known quite a few people who have had theirs for many years... I've yet to see any problems, and I don't expect any... And as I have mentioned in other posts, I absolutely love the feel of the radial pin joint.

[ThePoolHustler]

Personally, I hate metal to wood joints because there is a danger of cross-theading... yeah, I know, if I am careful nothing terrible will happen. Better safe than sorry I always say.

One reason Falcon is in the lead in my mind: the butt is a Predator butt. Pop on a 314 for $88, and I'll have a real Predator. Platnum billiards (for example -> http://www.platinumbilliards.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_86&products_id=1000272) will charge $88 for a 314 shaft, and I won't get the original Falcon shaft that comes with the cue.

So for $88 above the cost of any Falcon, I can make it a Predator.

Any time you are screwing something into wood there is definitely a chance of cross-threading, or stripping, the wood. Wood is not as strong as steel. Have any of you put a screw into wood and then had it strip out on you later on? Wood wears a lot quicker than steel. I would never buy a cue with a steel pin inserted into a plain wood shaft (no metal insert). It doesn't take much to ruin the wood threads. Not only that, but I view it as a lack of quality and craftsmanship not to have a metal insert in the shaft. Just my two cents!!!!

[audiopro]

Funny ya mentioned metal inserts.. Just a couple weeks ago while I was recovering my table, the metal insert stripped from the wood. The inner threads did not strip, but the portion which holds the metal insert into the wood, did...

So it is just as possible to ruin something with a metal insert, as it is without. Matter of fact, maybe even easier. You are introducing more parts into the equation. More parts = more failure points.

The metal inserts inside the shaft are usually threaded in. So you have the possibility of stripping it's outer threads then right? Well typically that does not happen. Matter fact, never heard of it happening.. Why?? Because there is not a great amount of pull being inflicted on it. The tightness does not come from a stronger screw thread, it comes from the friction at the joint ends.

[DZ314]

Any time you are threading two pieces of anything together there is a chance of cross-threading and ruining the connection. Theoretically threading metal into wood compared to threading metal into metal, the wood is weaker but nowhere have we actually seen this theory proven in cues. McDermott and many other cuemakers use no metal insert and if there was a problem with it then we would be seeing complaints. I have a McDermott with the standard 3/8x10 joint and have had no problems with it at all and do not expect to. It is a good joint. DZ Cues standard joint is the 3/8x10, which is being used on my soon to be finished custom. I challenge anyone who feels that this joint is lesser than others to use a cue with one and see for yourself rather than pass judgement based on unproven theories.

[LWW]

Well to each their own. However if you do strip a metal insert you just put another 1 in. In you strip a wood joint you buy a new shaft, although I grant you that a 10 thread is a coarse thread and maple is a hard wood and and cue pins and cut especially sharp or deep so the chances are very long against it happening.

I'm a little confused over what the perceived reason would be from a cuemaker's point of view though? FWIW I can't tell the diff in the hit between a Viking and a McDermott cue unless 1 has a SS joint and the other doesn't.

LWW

[ThePoolHustler]

Funny ya mentioned metal inserts.. Just a couple weeks ago while I was recovering my table, the metal insert stripped from the wood. The inner threads did not strip, but the portion which holds the metal insert into the wood, did...

So it is just as possible to ruin something with a metal insert, as it is without. Matter of fact, maybe even easier. You are introducing more parts into the equation. More parts = more failure points.

The metal inserts inside the shaft are usually threaded in. So you have the possibility of stripping it's outer threads then right? Well typically that does not happen. Matter fact, never heard of it happening.. Why?? Because there is not a great amount of pull being inflicted on it. The tightness does not come from a stronger screw thread, it comes from the friction at the joint ends.

You are not constantly unthreading and threading the metal insert into the wood. Therefore, there is less of a chance of cross-threading, or stripping, the wood. If you have a metal pin going into a wood insert, then you are constantly unthreading and threading the pin into the wood. Therefore, more of a chance of cross-threading, or stripping, the wood. More parts does not necessarily mean more failure points. I'm not sure where you get that from. I guess we should all be riding around on bicycles rather than driving cars eh? Bikes have less parts, right? Cars have more parts, right? More parts = more failure points (according to your logic)...right? I don't think your logic is correct here. You might want to re-think it.

LOL

8) 8) 8) 8)

[ThePoolHustler]

Any time you are threading two pieces of anything together there is a chance of cross-threading and ruining the connection. Theoretically threading metal into wood compared to threading metal into metal, the wood is weaker but nowhere have we actually seen this theory proven in cues. McDermott and many other cuemakers use no metal insert and if there was a problem with it then we would be seeing complaints. I have a McDermott with the standard 3/8x10 joint and have had no problems with it at all and do not expect to. It is a good joint. DZ Cues standard joint is the 3/8x10, which is being used on my soon to be finished custom. I challenge anyone who feels that this joint is lesser than others to use a cue with one and see for yourself rather than pass judgement based on unproven theories.

I'm sure the theories have been proven. I could always ask my father. He is a tool and die maker. He works with metal and threadings all day long. He went to college for it. I'm sure he could shed some light on this topic.

Eventually the wood will wear. Of course, metal will wear also. However, the wood will wear much faster than the metal. Think about it. It is common sense. There is also the "strength" factor. We sure the hell don't use wooden bolts and nuts to hold things together, especially in things like cars, etc. I wonder why we don't. Hmmm...probably because the engineers have done studies and have come up with theories as to why wooden bolts and nuts would deteriorate faster than metal bolts and nuts.

I would say this has been proven. Some of you just have not read anything about it.

COMMON SENSE!!!!

8) 8) 8) 8)

[audiopro]

Erik, thank you for picking a perfect example. You have proven my point..

A bike with it's lesser moving parts, is less likely to break down isn't it?

How many problems have ya had with your car, vs. a bike? Engine problems, starter problems, charging system problems, water hose breaking, fuel filter gone bad.

Yes, more parts means more possible failure points. That is a fact.

That does not mean that there is nothing to be gained from something with more parts. Yes a car is quicker, perhaps safer, better in harsh weather.. But indeed, a bike is ten times less likely to break down on ya...

How about this... Which is more likely to have a problem. A Scarab boat with it's 2 500hp engines, hydraulic steering system, etc.. or a Canoe, with two simple paddles? If you have ever worked on boats before, you would know the answer.. Sure the Scarab is a LOT faster, but a Canoe will never break down on ya.

Let me put it in pool terms for ya friend.. What is likely to have a joint break first? A one piece cue with less parts, or a two piece cue with more parts? :wink:

[DZ314]

I am talking about cues. Perhaps a Seybert's rep or the McD rep could report how many cues they have seen without a metal insert which needed repair.

[showboat]

How many have they seen needing repair with a 3/8 x 10 joint?? If you can strip a joint that threads into wood then you are alot stronger than me...and if you cross-thread one, then you are just stupid ..... :twisted:

[DZ314]

I am saying that I do not imagine that they have seen many, if any, which needed rapair. The myth will be dispelled.

Geez, I did not intend to start a "joint" war :o

Anyway, just purchased a Falcon FAL16 cue for $224. Should ship tomorrow. Thanks for all the feedback!

Specs from www.platinumbilliards.com:
Tip Diameter: 13 mm, Dime
Tip Type: Triangle, Med-Hard
Ferrule Type: Aegis
Ferrule Appearance: 1 inch Polished White
Shaft Type: 1 Piece Maple
Shaft Diameter @ 12: Medium
Joint Diameter: Medium
Joint Type: 5/16-14, Piloted
Forearm: Rosewood
Handle: Irish linen, black and white
Sleeve: Black phenolic resin with mother of pearl inlays, bone veneers and 2 silver rings
Handle Diameter: Med-Small
Overall Length: 58 inches
Deflection Rating: medium

[LWW]

My next cue will now be a 1 piece stainless steel rod. :P

LWW

[showboat]

Just as long as it isn't a Predator..... :twisted:

EDIT: I was just looking at those deflection ratings on platinum billiards...the numbers don't impress me that much....comparing a predator and say a stock McDermott, you still need to learn to compensate for quite a bit of deflection....

This is just the friendly little"troll" chiming in on McD cues. The standard joint on their cues is very good and very reliable. They have their pins made with rolled threads, so the pins have no sharp edges and actually burnish the inside wood threads each time you put it together, actually strengthening the threads over time. They have no problems with this joint over the 30+ years the company has been in business.
Do any of you remember when McD tried to get into tables and import cues only a few years back??? The reason you don't hear about them is because #1 they were junk and #2 even when McD paid for many of the big players in the billiards industry (airfair, hotel, food, etc.) to come down to their factory for a close and personal look at the tables and cues they still could not sell them. Lastly, for the very few people that bought into the song and dance, McD was unable to even delivery any tables (except for the ones on their showroom floor) and could not delivery the import line of cues (Shamrock) because of their inablility to pay for the cues they had ordered.
Larry Johns, the former president of McD, was even at the BCA trade show the year he "sold" the company, trying to find buyers for the cues that he had stuck his supplier with when McD's bills continued to go unpaid to the importer of the sharock cue line.
So you may be asking how I know all of this information, well come to your own conclusions of how this inside info would be known and who would know it and come up with your own conclusions. In the meantime the troll comment was uncalled for because I was just trying to help a person make an informed decision.

[audiopro]

Hmm.... Guest, with the level of info you have... You are either very well informed, or you may have worked for McDermott.. So which is it?

I am not saying you are wrong, I am just looking for some backup to your claim. If you are a well informed person, please share your resources.. If the other, please share...

Thanks.. 8O

[dags_lax]

Jim McDermott sold off the family businness three or four years ago to an investment group. Is it any wonder that now qaulity now becomes an issue when the return on investment is the sole reason for being in business. Not that is necessarily a bad thing, especially if you are a shareholder. But when it is your name that is on a product you may be willing to sacrafice a little on the bottom line in order to produce a product that has not only your name on it, but also has a piece of your soul built into it.

[skor]

So guest, when did you get fired from McDermott ? :twisted:

[showboat]

So guest, when did you get fired from McDermott ? :twisted:

LOLz

[DZ314]

He probably quit because of the drop in quality. I wouldn't want to hang around when things go down the toilet. 8O

[LWW]

The story makes sense.

The insistence to not even use a screen name bothers me.

I mean this ain't Watergate and deep throat, and even deep throat was an identity that was something beyond total nebulousity.

Inside scoope. Bitter current/ex employee. Competitor. Take your pick.

LWW

So Skor, why are you trying to start a fight with such an inflammatory comment? Maybe vengence is one of your attributes but it not one of mine (at least not for such a miniscule thing as a job.) I was not fired from McD but I cannot say anything else except that my info is truthful regarding McD and their products. Here's a tidbit, you now they have a hustler cue in their line, well I hate to inform everyone that purchased one that it is nothing more than a Valley butt and a McD shaft. $200 + is alot to pay for a Valley. They get the Valley butts in by the palletful and contrary to there corporate jargon they are not turned down slowly over a period of time, they are turned into cues as soon as possible.

[showboat]

All the more reason to be patronizing your freindly custom cuemaker.....instead of that stuff churned out by CNC chimpanzees.....

[audiopro]

So Skor, why are you trying to start a fight with such an inflammatory comment? Maybe vengence is one of your attributes but it not one of mine (at least not for such a miniscule thing as a job.) I was not fired from McD but I cannot say anything else except that my info is truthful regarding McD and their products. Here's a tidbit, you now they have a hustler cue in their line, well I hate to inform everyone that purchased one that it is nothing more than a Valley butt and a McD shaft. $200 + is alot to pay for a Valley. They get the Valley butts in by the palletful and contrary to there corporate jargon they are not turned down slowly over a period of time, they are turned into cues as soon as possible.

Dude, note the little smiley at the end of skor's post.. He was not being totally serious, somewhat joking...

As far as, you can't say anything more.. Eh, I dont quite agree with that.. For what reason can't you say more!? Tis the Internet, anonymity is your friend..

[SnoopWeasle]

So Skor, why are you trying to start a fight with such an inflammatory comment? Maybe vengence is one of your attributes but it not one of mine (at least not for such a miniscule thing as a job.) I was not fired from McD but I cannot say anything else except that my info is truthful regarding McD and their products. Here's a tidbit, you now they have a hustler cue in their line, well I hate to inform everyone that purchased one that it is nothing more than a Valley butt and a McD shaft. $200 + is alot to pay for a Valley. They get the Valley butts in by the palletful and contrary to there corporate jargon they are not turned down slowly over a period of time, they are turned into cues as soon as possible.

Kinda makes me glad that I did not get a McD. You know what they say: sometimes there is truth surrounding wild claims.

All I know is McD makes nice cues, but this is a cut-throat business. China is pumping out crap cues left and right. So it makes sense that McD is exercising cost-cutting measures. Unfortunatly, these measures might imply lower quality.

By my standards: Cutec is crap, as is Fury (made in the same warehouse as Lucasi), as is Lucasi (wraps peels off prematurely). I could go on.

[showboat]

This could come and backfire on them.....or they will become lumped together with Fury and Lucasi level cues.....right now they're at least a step up from that....

[katokahn99]

I've been shooting with the same McDermott cue for 13 years. It's got a 3/8x10 metal pin going into a wooden shaft and have NEVER had a problem with it. In fact, I like it because I don't have to be especially causious when I screw it in.
I got a 314 shaft a few years ago and love how it plays and use it almost all the time. I will occassionally us my original shaft just because I can and it's become an old and dear friend to me.

To the guest who bought the Falcon over a McD: did you consider McDermott's lifetime warrantee agianst warpage and manufacturing defects AND their lifetime free cue maintenance?

[French Billiards]

My next cue will now be a 1 piece stainless steel rod. :P

LWW

The McDermott company must be reading this discussion board and must have noticed the above comment since it released the Intimidator on January 26, 2006.

:wink: :wink: :wink: