View Full Version : question on ultra-leather wrap
poser
05-03-2005, 05:09 AM
I have a P2 with ultra-leather wrap. I was told that the leather is not real leather but some kinda of synthetic material. Is this true? If it is real leather, how is it that the texture is different from other leather wraps?
Sorry for repeating this question as I realize I may have asked this in the wrong place.
As far as I know it's not real leather
As for the feel, leather from different animals will feel different, the different process ways of leather may result in different feel
How can ultra leather not be real leather?
If yhis is the case Predator is playing with deep legal voodoo.
LWW
poser
05-05-2005, 01:59 AM
As far as I know it's not real leather
I am kinda disappointed if it is not 8O . the P2 is not exactly cheap and I would have expected that it is at least REAL leather rather than some synthetics :roll: . Perhaps Predator would like to comment ?
Neil Fujiwara
05-05-2005, 08:20 AM
We use a synthetic because it will last longer, feel better and is more consistent than real leather. We are researching alternatives as we speak with real leathers and more synthetics.
What legal ramifications are present with us using a synthetic? Ultra Leather is a trademarked name and is the material they use for the upholstry of the Gulfstream 4, which is a $30M jet and for high dollar Recreational Vehicles.
audiopro
05-05-2005, 08:39 AM
I will only use synthetic oil in my car for the same reasons... :)
It protects better than dino.
It lasts longer than dino.
It cleans better then dino.
Syn > Non-syn...
8)
Nissan was hammered in court a view yrs back for advertising leather seats when it was only leather seating areas which jas led every mfr to change their ad verbiage.
Now car companies are big targets for legal sharks I'll grant you, but I also doubt that Predator would like being made to reimburse every buyer for the cost of adding a leather wrap plus legal fees.
I agree that synthetics are in many cases better BUT when it goes to court if you advertised gog crap and instead used 14K gold you could still be found liable for the value of dog crap.
I'm not an atty or a fan of these type of lawsuits which hold a company liable for a lack of common sense on the part of the consumer BUT that doesn't mean they don't exist.
I would advise that your legal eagles take a look at this at the very least.
LWW
Neil Fujiwara
05-05-2005, 09:47 AM
If you look at every ad we release there is a trademark symbol after the Ultra-Leather name, and there is no mention that it is a real leather.
audiopro
05-05-2005, 09:51 AM
But it is not said to be genuine cowhide leather. The Product is advertised as an 'Ultra Leather' wrap. That is just the name of the product, not the type of material used in the product. It could indeed mean it is leather, but could just as easily mean it is a leather-like product.
Microsoft Windows is a computer operating system. When I purchase it, I dont expect to get windows I could install in my house to look out of...
Neil I'm just relaying what I have observed in the legal system.
In my line of work I have attended many seminars on just this type of thing and how to protect yourself.
In our society you can have the best of intentions and be torched in a courtroom.
Remember GM and the exploding gas tanks? ABC news wanted to "prove" that GM had a dangerous design even though statistics showed it to be the safest truck made at the time. Well they took 1 and rammed it in the side at 50 MPH and it didn't blow. Next they rammed another at 65 MPH and it didn't blow. Next they rammed another at 65 MPH with holes drilled in the fuel tank and it didn't blow. Next they rammed another at 65 MPH with holes drilled in the tank and a lit flare hanging in the fenderwell and it finally blew.
Guess which video every jury member had seen on TV without knowing how it was done? A couple billion dollars later and GM has a whistle blower from ABC news come forth and they get an 8 second retraction right as they start to roll the credits.
Again I hate these types of things when they happen and see it as legal extortion.
Anyway I like your product and would hate to see the price go up to cover the cost of this type of abuse and have spoken what I have knowledge of. If you guys are happy with it I am and maybe the little TM saves you from liability but my understanding was that this merely shows that you are using a phrase under license.
PS: As a legal defense, and I'm an educated consumer IMHO, telling me that ultra-leather doesn't mean real leather is pretty weak. OTOH it wouldn't bother me enough to not buy your product or to sue. I can't speak for the next guy however.
LWW
Neil Fujiwara
05-05-2005, 10:05 AM
We appreciate the input, I will forward the link of this forum to our attorney to see if there is a valid arguement that needs his attention. Thank you.
I got ro admit that I was not familiar with the trade-mark "ultra-leather" and when the first P2 came out I though it was real leather, I only found out later then it wasn't, as a customer I rather see a term like synthetic leather but I gues that it will make the cue look cheap
dags_lax
05-05-2005, 11:05 AM
Ultra-Leather name, and there is no mention that it is a real leather
But the average consumer will over look the trademark symbol and not realize that it is just a name of a product that could refer to anything. Putting the words ultra and leather together gives the impression that it is a premium grade of leather when in reality it is just a premium grade of vinyl. But some how "Ultra Vinyl", which would be a more accurate description of the product, just wouldn't excite the consumer the same way.
It's all marketing. Misleading? Certainly. Unethical? In my book it sure is. Legal? Often times yes. At least in the case of Velveeta Cheese they have a 51% cheese content.
In the case of the Predator cue I wonder how many buyers thought they were getting a leather wrap? I would bet that it's over 90%. When I placed my order for a P2 I thought I was getting a REAL leather wrap.
Perhaps the Ultra Leather is a better product. But if that were the case you think Predator would use that as a selling point, seeing how they like to tout the superior performance of their products. Maybe they have reservations about the use of leather like they about the use ivory. And perhaps Ultra Leather is cheaper than real leather, that would be my guess.
DZ314
05-05-2005, 11:11 AM
If it is not real leather then it should be cheaper than the real stuff. I agree that it is unethical to name something that it is not, and I acknowledge that it is not a Predator product but just one that they have installed on some of their cues.
audiopro
05-05-2005, 11:18 AM
It's called fluff..
All marketing uses it, and there are such huge grey spots within the laws, that they get away with it..
Ever notice how the Toyota Camry is the number 1 car in it's class. As is the Nissan Maxima. The Chevy Malibu. Umm, aren't they all in the same class? Who decides class? Whose report said they were number 1?!
Marketing fluff. We are all victim to it... Is it right? Not really.. But, as consumers, and hopefully educated people, we have learned to see through marketing fluff, and dig deeper if we wish to have exacting facts.
Google Marketing Fluff, and you will find a plethora of info on it..
DZ314
05-05-2005, 11:23 AM
Fluff might be embellishing, but calling a piece of vinyl a piece of leather is a false statement according to anyone. It is a lie. At least Toyota can state which report they used which shows that the Camry is #1. Let's see something from the Ultra Leather people which shows that their vinyl is leather. I think we might be waiting until the cows come home on that one.
audiopro
05-05-2005, 11:26 AM
Can't disagree with you. All I am saying is, such practices exist.
dags_lax
05-05-2005, 11:27 AM
The Ultra Leather may not be a Predator product but my guess is that Predator realizes that people see the words Ultra Leather and assume leather and do nothing to dissuade the customer of their erroneous assumption. And it not just the manufacturer and this reseller of Ultra Leather. Unfortunately this practice is not uncommon. Oh well, caveat emptor.
DZ314
05-05-2005, 11:27 AM
I am well aware of that, and when I see it I want to puke.
audiopro
05-05-2005, 11:32 AM
I've just learned to live with it, and take on a more investigative role when making substantial purchases... It's buyer beware. Sad but true...
Legally it is a Predator product when theey put their name on it.
These things slide by the legal radar on an individual basis because no individual is going to sue over the value of a $50 leather wrap and even if they do it's small claims and you pay them and it ends there.
The way the system is pimped is ina class action suit. One barrister can get a court order to sort through your entire customer database and tie up your office staff for days as they do so.
Once that happens they contact every owner with a letter stating that if they send the letter back they may get money which yields a high return rate. Now they file in court with a list of thousands of aggrieved customers when really there are none.
A year later to put an end to it you settle for $250K to the attys for representing the otherwise happy consumers and a 5% off certificate on the purchase of a new Predator cue. The atty has POA to settle from the return of the letters by the owners, the company just wants it out of the hobby's press and off of the forums, and the judge signs off on it.
I suspect that Predator just isn't a big enough fish to be worth frying yet.
I hate to bring a downer into this but it is reality.
I also think it is misleading to advertise vinyl as leather, trademark or not. It sullies an otherwise fine product IMHO.
Perhaps they could advertise that they hand select only the finest Nauga hides for their wraps? 8)
LWW
DZ314
05-05-2005, 01:14 PM
Yeah, pretty scary stuff.
Our legal system has been pimped so badly it's terrifying. Many companies have moved offshore with their HQ's and assets after having been hammered by such nonsense.
IMHO William Shakespeare had the right idea.
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-05-2005, 05:15 PM
Lucky me! I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years. I used to cut leather for car seats. You can't fool me. I can tell the difference between leather and vinyl very easily. Both are used in car seats. If you want something close to perfect, get vinyl. If you want something with flaws, get leather. It's kind of like real vs. fake diamonds.
8) 8) 8) 8)
ThePoolHustler
05-05-2005, 05:16 PM
Our legal system has been pimped so badly it's terrifying. Many companies have moved offshore with their HQ's and assets after having been hammered by such nonsense.
IMHO William Shakespeare had the right idea.
LWW
You're absolutely right! They don't have to pay taxes and all that jazz when they do this.
ThePoolHustler
05-05-2005, 05:21 PM
I would say that after working with leather for 5.5 years I am probably a leather expert. I know all the flaws and what will happen to the leather if it is flawed.
Closed Scars - okay if not raised too high and if not too wide
Open Scars - bad news depending on how wide they are
Pits - could be bad news if there are a lot of them clustered together
Pinholes - could be bad news if there are a lot of them clustered together
These are the most common. Sometimes you will find paint chips, which can be hard to see. If there is a paint chip, plan on having the paint peel off the leather at some point. I'm sure you have all seen this in old leather car seats or old leather jackets. It can even happen when they are new. Most companies try to hide the imperfections in leather products so that you can't see them. It takes a trained eye to see the imperfections sometimes. I have a trained eye. If you want your leather stuff inspected you can send it to me for a thorough inspection. I will let you know if it is any good or not.
Personally, I would prefer vinyl over leather if given the choice.
In the case of the Predator cue I wonder how many buyers thought they were getting a leather wrap? I would bet that it's over 90%. When I placed my order for a P2 I thought I was getting a REAL leather wrap.
Sadly, i realize too late that i am also one of the statistics. :cry: i am not sure why predator wud do a thing like this given that it has a strong product. I for one wud gladly pay more for genuine leather products (warts and all) simply because it is genuine. Synthetics = imitation (imitating nature) which means "it isn't the real thing!". My respect for the company just drop a notch! :evil:
Erik you bring up many valid points. OTOH I doubt that you would EXPECT to pay MORE for vinyl.
LWW
DEATHTRON
05-06-2005, 04:08 AM
Im not exaclty sure what everyone is mad about. I read everything, and I do not see anywhere that Predator says anything other than Ultra Leather wrap. You got what you paid for....and if you wanted "real" leather then you should have researched before your purchase. This is the reason almost 98% of my major buying decisions are researched. New custom cue...ya I want one...but I wont be ordering for at LEAST 3 months if ever. New cue case...waited about half a year. Ive done my homework on all my major billiard purchases and Im happy with everything. I dont really see how Predator can get sued for anything...they clearly stated what the consumer was getting. Anyways, thats my take on things, Im sure Ill catch plenty of flack but seems you cant say anything these days without getting picked upon.
Zach
As someone who didn't know what ultra-leather is, I'm not mad at anybody, maybe because I didn't buy a cue with it, when I first saw the P2 and the term ultra-leather it did made me curious what's the difference between ultra-leather and just plain leather, first thing that came to mind is that ultra-leather is some kind of high quality leather, I found out by accident that it was not leather, but I'm sure that if I was planing to get a cue that had ultra-leather on it then I would research it more and found out the truth before buying it.
I guess like Greg said, I've learned to live with it
audiopro
05-06-2005, 08:27 AM
Im not exaclty sure what everyone is mad about. I read everything, and I do not see anywhere that Predator says anything other than Ultra Leather wrap. You got what you paid for....and if you wanted "real" leather then you should have researched before your purchase. This is the reason almost 98% of my major buying decisions are researched. New custom cue...ya I want one...but I wont be ordering for at LEAST 3 months if ever. New cue case...waited about half a year. Ive done my homework on all my major billiard purchases and Im happy with everything. I dont really see how Predator can get sued for anything...they clearly stated what the consumer was getting. Anyways, thats my take on things, Im sure Ill catch plenty of flack but seems you cant say anything these days without getting picked upon.
Zach
I totally agree...
Gee, Zach has figured this out and he is what?? 18 or 19 years old?? If some of us older, wiser, people haven't figured it out to do research first, it's your own fault..
All good advice except that the legal system is stacked against common sense.
I did a little more research on this and the Magnuson-Moss act covers implied warrantys and my non-atty interpretation is that it's very clear, if it looks like leather you may be liable. If you call it leather it better be leather.
In an airplane sale I'm sure that somewhere in the contract there is a disclosure explaining the difference.
An analogy would be that because it looks like a cuestick and we call it a cuestick doesn't mean you can use it as a cuestick.
LWW
audiopro
05-06-2005, 10:35 AM
So when hotwheels package says "Hotwheels Chevy Camaro" You are getting an actual Camaro, that you can start the engine, drive, etc.???
The point is, the legal system does in fact leave a large room for interprutation. In the end, if someone wants to sue, both sides plea their case, and the judge or jury decides...
For you to say anything within the legal system is "very clear" is very wrong in my opinion.. Geeze, even such simple things in our minds as mruder, the courts and legal system have problems interpruting what is "very clear".
Additionally, while you can find one act or law that favors one side, you can find just as many that favor the other side.. Again, the judge and/or jury, ultimately decides. Case law is just a foundation upon which to go by, it is not concrete.
Again, the judge and/or jury, ultimately decides.
That's the theory.
Again to use the GM truck situation if a class action suit ties up several million a year in manpower pulling and providing records PLUS a billion a year in lost profit from bad pulicity plus millions in defense expense then at some point it becomes a smart business decision to just pay the attys to go away even though you know full well that once you get your day in court you will win and even though you know that no consumer really benefits and even though both sides know that money has been legally extorted since they both agree the judge has to sign offf on a "settlement".
You can believe this doesn't happen but it does and the costs are buried in every product we buy.
Another example is this:
Has anyone ever bothered to ask WHY a drug can be made in the US by 1 company, exported to Canada to a 2nd company, reimported to the US by a 3rd company, and then sold for a fraction of the cost than if it was just made and sold here in the 1st place?
Simple. The selling company now didn't make it. The Canadian exporter can't be sued in the US legal system. The US maker exported it. The legal costs have been expunged from the process.
LWW
DZ314
05-06-2005, 01:37 PM
That's right Larry, it happens a lot more than we know and it is sad really. :x
dags_lax
05-06-2005, 10:12 PM
Has anyone ever bothered to ask WHY a drug can be made in the US by 1 company, exported to Canada to a 2nd company, reimported to the US by a 3rd company, and then sold for a fraction of the cost than if it was just made and sold here in the 1st place?
Simple. The selling company now didn't make it. The Canadian exporter can't be sued in the US legal system. The US maker exported it. The legal costs have been expunged from the process.
If that were the case then the foreign drug companies or foreign subsidiaries of American drug companies produce a drug outside the U.S. (as is commonly the case) then why is it still cheaper to import that drug from outside the U.S.?
Again the liability is removed.
LWW
Again the liability is removed.
LWW
Doesn't the company that import it into the U.S is liable for the products that they represent :?:
We had a case here in Israel about a year ago with a product called Remedia baby formula, made by a German company named Humana, the product was missing a valuable ingredient ( a production flaw by mistake), some babies got very sick and some died, the company that imported that product into the country was very much liable and it did get sued by the parents.
I'm sure such liability exists in the U.S.A, the FDA must approve any drug to be imported and to be sold in the U.S, I'm sure that a part of this approvement is depended on that someone will be liable and I can't see how the manufacturer of the drug will let someone else sell their product cheaper and still take the liabilty on them selves, if this is the case the system is really f**ked up, it is a hole in the legal system that will allow crooks to make fast easy money without getting sued.
Im not an attorney again but if something is made "FOR EXPORT ONLY" then the reimporter is th consumer. They hold liability as would the bvendor who sild it to them, but being a Canadian firm they would be outside our legal reach.
This loophole may be closed some day but as yet it's wide open. If it does the price difference will vanish.
Remember this is the US of A and if I shoot you the court will buy the fact that it's not my fault because of a traumatized childhood yet you could sue the gunmaker and might win.
LWW
dags_lax
05-07-2005, 10:41 AM
I posed the importation question to llw just to get him thinking. If lessened liability were the case than every thing American would be cheaper in Canada. In fact for the most part that is just the opposite. Prices for American good are higher in Canada than in America.
Drug prices are cheaper in Canada because the Canadian government negotiates with the drug companies and has price controls. It is a simple case of government looking out for the best interest of the citizens. And in spite of this heavy handed government interference drug companies are still able to make a profit in that environment.
ThePoolHustler
05-07-2005, 06:58 PM
As someone who didn't know what ultra-leather is, I'm not mad at anybody, maybe because I didn't buy a cue with it, when I first saw the P2 and the term ultra-leather it did made me curious what's the difference between ultra-leather and just plain leather, first thing that came to mind is that ultra-leather is some kind of high quality leather, I found out by accident that it was not leather, but I'm sure that if I was planing to get a cue that had ultra-leather on it then I would research it more and found out the truth before buying it.
I guess like Greg said, I've learned to live with it
High-quality leather is leather without major imperfections. Basically, leather is leather other than that...cow-hide anyway. Tell the farmers to take down the barbed wire fences and the leather will have less scars. Tell the flies to fly somewhere else and there will be less fly bites on them too, which is another imperfection. How about we just keep cows in a controlled environment/building. Maybe the leather will be closer to perfect then. hehehe
ThePoolHustler ~aka~ Leather Expert
ThePoolHustler
05-07-2005, 06:59 PM
Im not exaclty sure what everyone is mad about. I read everything, and I do not see anywhere that Predator says anything other than Ultra Leather wrap. You got what you paid for....and if you wanted "real" leather then you should have researched before your purchase. This is the reason almost 98% of my major buying decisions are researched. New custom cue...ya I want one...but I wont be ordering for at LEAST 3 months if ever. New cue case...waited about half a year. Ive done my homework on all my major billiard purchases and Im happy with everything. I dont really see how Predator can get sued for anything...they clearly stated what the consumer was getting. Anyways, thats my take on things, Im sure Ill catch plenty of flack but seems you cant say anything these days without getting picked upon.
Zach
I totally agree...
Gee, Zach has figured this out and he is what?? 18 or 19 years old?? If some of us older, wiser, people haven't figured it out to do research first, it's your own fault..
I totally agree too. Do your research!!!!
ThePoolHustler
05-07-2005, 07:07 PM
I posed the importation question to llw just to get him thinking. If lessened liability were the case than every thing American would be cheaper in Canada. In fact for the most part that is just the opposite. Prices for American good are higher in Canada than in America.
Drug prices are cheaper in Canada because the Canadian government negotiates with the drug companies and has price controls. It is a simple case of government looking out for the best interest of the citizens. And in spite of this heavy handed government interference drug companies are still able to make a profit in that environment.
If we had a national health care system here our prices for drugs and medical services would go down also. The government would be running it and regulating it. We have more competition among pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, doctors, etc. There is a demand for all of these things. This is what drives the prices up. It's not exactly like this in Canada.
I was looking here on Seybert's and there is no disclosure on the order page that ultra leather is not leather.
I also find it ludicrous for a customer to have to research whether something is what you are told it is. If I buy a new car with a V8 I have every right to assume it's a V8 with 8 functioning pistons and shouldn't have to check and see if there is compression in 8 cylinders or if 2 plug wires are dummies and I really got a V6
Also I find it amazing that the charge for the ultra(not)leather is higher in cost that what a leather wrap can be added to a cue for.
LWW
DEATHTRON
05-08-2005, 12:20 AM
I was looking here on Seybert's and there is no disclosure on the order page that ultra leather is not leather.
I also find it ludicrous for a customer to have to research whether something is what you are told it is. If I buy a new car with a V8 I have every right to assume it's a V8 with 8 functioning pistons and shouldn't have to check and see if there is compression in 8 cylinders or if 2 plug wires are dummies and I really got a V6
Also I find it amazing that the charge for the ultra(not)leather is higher in cost that what a leather wrap can be added to a cue for.
LWW
Im going to sort of...disagree. The reference you made to v8 engines is a great example. Today, there are v8's. and those v8's that only use 4cylinders when there isnt the need for all 8 at the time. Those v8's have some special name attached to them...like ".....or optional dot4 hemi". Now, it may only be me, but Im sure as hell going to ask what gives with the dot4 attachment. Or if in an add an engine is "turbochared" instead of turbocharged im also going to wonder whats up. When predator says ulta leather wrap...they really mean ultra leather wrap, not fancy leather. Again, thats my take on it Larry, but you do have more years under you belt and I can completely see where you are coming from.
Zach
ThePoolHustler
05-08-2005, 09:20 AM
Predator using the term "Ultra Leather" does make it sound like it is supposed to be a "Premium" LEATHER. This his how marketing is. Companies want people to believe things that aren't true in order to get them to buy things. It happens all the time. Everywhere! Welcome to the world of competition and marketing. This is exactly why people need to do their homework before making a purchase.
ThePoolHustler
05-08-2005, 09:27 AM
Remember this...
Less usually = More $$$$
We see this every day. The less ingredients in a product, the more it cost. It's probably the same with leather vs. vinyl. There are fewer imperfections in vinyl or "Ultra Leather" so they slap the word "Ultra" in front of the word "Leather" and charge you more for it. Anything with the word "Splenda" on it will cost you more too. Products with less sugar are in high-demand. High-demand equals higher price. If people stop buying these products, the prices will come down. Don't buy "Ultra Leather" and the price will come down. Write a letter to Predator and tell them what you think. Have Neil say something. I don't know. Tell them to change the name to "Ultra Vinyl" or something. I'm sure people can call Predator (while doing their research) and ask what the "Ultra Leather" is made of. If they tell you it is made from genuine leather and it is really vinyl, then you have a case on your hands. You must have proof.
Well about 20 yrs ago Chrysler was crucified over using the term"rich Corinthian leather" and the product WAS leather but it wasn't from Corinth. I also assume no rich Corinthian immigrants were harmed during it's production :wink: .
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-08-2005, 12:09 PM
Well about 20 yrs ago Chrysler was crucified over using the term"rich Corinthian leather" and the product WAS leather but it wasn't from Corinth. I also assume no rich Corinthian immigrants were harmed during it's production :wink: .
LWW
There are laws against false advertising. :wink:
Do you think that Homer Simpson cue I sold on ebay for $25,000.00 as a vintage original Balabushka might come back to haunt me?
LWW
I am a bit put off by this thread.
I have dealt with Predator and visited their facility in Jacksonville. Everybody there was quite nice and very proud of the product they offer to the public.
In both my visit to the plant and in my dealings with Neil and Seyberts, I have never had the impression that they were dishonest and/or deceptive in any of their dealings with their customers or their prospetive customers.
If you notice, Ultra Leather is a trademarked product. You can tell that from the little ® symbol after it as well as the fact that it is capitalized, while mentions of leather wraps are not.
Had anybody taken the time to ask either Syeberts or Predator the nature of an Ultra Leather wrap, I am quite certain that he would receive an honest and complete reponse.
Predator also has a 30-day money back guarantee which is also honored by Seyberts.
With all that, I don't know why some of you have your nickers in a twist.
jkregan
05-08-2005, 02:24 PM
I am a bit put off by this thread.
I have dealt with Predator and visited their facility in Jacksonville. Everybody there was quite nice and very proud of the product they offer to the public.
In both my visit to the plant and in my dealings with Neil and Seyberts, I have never had the impression that they were dishonest and/or deceptive in any of their dealings with their customers or their prospetive customers.
If you notice, Ultra Leather is a trademarked product. You can tell that from the little ® symbol after it as well as the fact that it is capitalized, while mentions of leather wraps are not.
Had anybody taken the time to ask either Seyberts or Predator the nature of an Ultra Leather wrap, I am quite certain that he would receive an honest and complete reponse.
Predator also has a 30-day money back guarantee which is also honored by Seyberts.
With all that, I don't know why some of you have your nickers in a twist.
I wanted to make sure I posted this under my name. I didn't realize I wasn't logged in when I posted it.
audiopro
05-08-2005, 03:47 PM
With all that, I don't know why some of you have your nickers in a twist.
What he said!!!
Nobody has argued that they don't make a great product.
My participation started out more as a warning about how these things can get out of hand legally Warning against the few legal slimeballs that give an honest occupation a bad name shouldn't be construed as endorsing their practices.
From there I went to the Predator section and found it very difficult to find something which told me that UltraLeather isn't leather.
From there it's up to Predator to decide whether they make the ads clearer or not but I am still of the opinion that in a court of law they would become Prey to a different type of Predator.
In these circumstances intent to defraud is not the issue but whether a reasonable person would assume that something called ultra leather is leather. On that count the wording and the pricing IMHO would do them in.
LWW
DZ314
05-09-2005, 08:47 AM
You know the old saying, "You get what you pay for." Sometimes this is not the case, as evidenced here. Anyway, as far as leather goes, if the grade is high enough then the quality and durability will be there. Of course if we're talking about full hides then there will be problems on many areas of them, and that is why if you're after high grade then you won't be using the whole thing obviously.
Rolls Royce has an island in the English Channel where they raise cows and it has no rocks, no trees, and no fences.
LWW
DZ314
05-09-2005, 10:01 AM
Rolls Royce has an island in the English Channel where they raise cows and it has no rocks, no trees, and no fences.
LWW
That sounds like ideal conditions for high grade leather!
dags_lax
05-09-2005, 10:06 AM
But do the feed them beer?
audiopro
05-09-2005, 10:18 AM
Happy cows come from California!!!
Happy cows come from California!!!
actually, the happiest cows come from japan, well untill they get butchered for their meat, I'm talking about kobe beef, those cows are given beer to drink and are getting massages with Sake every day
audiopro
05-09-2005, 11:03 AM
Actually skor you are wrong!!!!! :twisted:
We have a TV Commercial lineup here in the states for dairy products, and it is sponsored by the California Farmers Union. The slogan for the commercials is "Happy Cows come from California."
http://www.realcaliforniacheese.com/happyCows/cowTVPopup.cfm?sub=about&page=2&band=lg
dags_lax
05-09-2005, 11:09 AM
I always said when I died and was reincarnated I wanted to come back as a champion race horse. Work for three years and then put out to stud. But this Kobe beef gig doesn't sound like too bad of a deal either.
LOL, I've seen it before, but you got to admit that those grass eating cows sound a lot less happy then the japanese beer drinking cows :twisted:
I always said when I died and was reincarnated I wanted to come back as a champion race horse. Work for three years and then put out to stud. But this Kobe beef gig doesn't sound like too bad of a deal either.
.... and they sell it for $100 per pound, so your kids will be rich :twisted:
dags_lax
05-09-2005, 11:19 AM
They could sell me now for $100 a pound and while it wouldn't leave my kids rich they would certainly be well off.
audiopro
05-09-2005, 11:21 AM
LOL, I've seen it before, but you got to admit that those grass eating cows sound a lot less happy then the japanese beer drinking cows :twisted:
Yeah, you are right! Beer drinking cows would have to be happier than those smoking, err.. Eating grass... :)
They only feed them warm beer.
LWW
DEATHTRON
05-09-2005, 12:12 PM
Happy cows come from California!!!
actually, the happiest cows come from japan, well untill they get butchered for their meat, I'm talking about kobe beef, those cows are given beer to drink and are getting massages with Sake every day
I ate a Kobe steak house just last night with my parents for mothers day..MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
most of the Kobe beef that you get in the U.S in not the original Kobe, its beef from cattle that is raised in the U.S, it's bred and nurtured like kobe but it's not the same race of cattle.
It's also cheaper then the real thing but still better then the average beef.
there some places in NYC that serve a burger made of american kobe and they charge $40 - $50 for it
dags_lax
05-09-2005, 12:33 PM
Beer drinking Japanees cows. Somehow I find that hard to believe. Now an Irish cow, that's another story.
dags_lax
05-09-2005, 12:35 PM
They only feed them warm beer? Really? That's cruel. I think it's time to get P.E.T.A. involved here!
Not a bad idea but on the island they only have Lucas telephones.
Anyone who ever owned an Brit roadster will get it.
LWW
DZ314
05-09-2005, 01:43 PM
They only feed them warm beer? Really? That's cruel. I think it's time to get P.E.T.A. involved here!
LMAO, nice one! :lol:
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:08 PM
You know the old saying, "You get what you pay for." Sometimes this is not the case, as evidenced here. Anyway, as far as leather goes, if the grade is high enough then the quality and durability will be there. Of course if we're talking about full hides then there will be problems on many areas of them, and that is why if you're after high grade then you won't be using the whole thing obviously.
There really is no such thing as "high-grade" leather. Either the leather has defects in it or it doesn't. Some pieces of leather may have more defects than others. I guess you could say that a piece of leather with less defects is "high-grade". It is hard to find a cowhide without a lot of defects in it. Trust me. I worked with FULL cowhides for 5.5 years. Most of them were full of defects, which made it very difficult to cut a good piece out of. For the most part, you are always going to have some defects in leather products. Some defects are okay to have and some are not. The quality differs based on the defects. The durability is also based on the amount of defects...such as open scars that weaken the leather because when pulled they thin out...just like an open scar on a human. Not all defects will affect the durability of the leather. Closed scars are okay.
Most of the defects in leather cowhides come from the environment the cows are kept in. Barbed wire fences will cause the cows to have a lot of scars...open and closed. Flies will cause fly bites. These are just a couple of examples.
If anyone has any questions, just let me know. I will do my best to answer them.
Erik ~aka~ Leather Expert
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:11 PM
Rolls Royce has an island in the English Channel where they raise cows and it has no rocks, no trees, and no fences.
LWW
Yeah...as I just replied to DZ314...the environment the cows are kept in has a lot to do with quality and durability.
No rocks, no trees, no fences = less scars, fly bites, pinholes, etc.
This will produce cows with less defects in their hides. Thus, Rolls Royce will have better hides to cut their seat components from.
I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years. :wink:
So how long did you worked with automotive leather ? 8O
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:23 PM
So how long did you worked with automotive leather ? 8O
Are we trying to be a smartass? If so, it's not necessary.
spartan
05-09-2005, 06:26 PM
i have used an instroke buffalo cowboy case for about 2 years and i havent noticed any trouble with it. nor the cues i have with leather wraps. although im not an expert. :wink:
Erik, relax I was just playing with ya a bit, don't take it too hard I was just kidding 8)
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:32 PM
Erik, relax I was just playing with ya a bit, don't take it too hard I was just kidding 8)
Don't worry, I'm not taking it hard.
BTW...I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years. Have I made that clear yet. lmao
:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:33 PM
i have used an instroke buffalo cowboy case for about 2 years and i havent noticed any trouble with it. nor the cues i have with leather wraps. although im not an expert. :wink:
Leather is great for absorbing moisture. When I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years (lmao) my hands were always very dry.
spartan
05-09-2005, 06:35 PM
my friend has a leather wrap and his hands sweat alot and it feels terrible now. it got all tacky and broke down on him. he went with a lizard and it works better for him.
I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years
OH! AUTOMOTIVE leather. Whenyou said you worked i leather I thought....oh never mind. :wink:
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:50 PM
I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years
OH! AUTOMOTIVE leather. Whenyou said you worked i leather I thought....oh never mind. :wink:
LWW
Yeah...automotive leather (pretty much the same as any cowhide)...and I worked with it for 5.5 years. hahaha
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 06:51 PM
my friend has a leather wrap and his hands sweat alot and it feels terrible now. it got all tacky and broke down on him. he went with a lizard and it works better for him.
Yep...that will happen with leather. After awhile, it will dry up and crack and break down from all the moisture it absorbs. Like Irish Linen, it needs to be replaced now and then.
he went with a lizard and it works better for him.
And what does his dating habits have to do with pool? :twisted:
LWW
he went with a lizard and it works better for him.
And what does his dating habits have to do with pool? :twisted:
LWW
LOL :lol:
Well at least she wasn't an ultra lizard.
LWW
DZ314
05-09-2005, 10:13 PM
Here are some informative links about leather:
http://www.fineleatherfurniture.com/leather.php3
http://www.leatheremporium.com/leather.htm
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 10:32 PM
Here are some informative links about leather:
http://www.fineleatherfurniture.com/leather.php3
http://www.leatheremporium.com/leather.htm
There ya go...these show some of the imperfections you can find in the leather.
Tone = there are different "lots" of painted leather which can result in different shades of leather
Grain = If the look is too "pebbly", it is not a good thing - leather can become weak
Healed Scars (Closed Scars) = these are okay as long as they are not too raised and as long as they don't pull. For more clarification on this, just ask me.
Wrinkles = too many, not good
Stretch marks = too many, not good
Veining = too much, not good
Some of the above just depends on the customer and the type of look they are after.
There are also such imperfections as...
Pinholes - tiny holes in the leather - too many in one area can weaken the leather and cause it to tear
Fly bites - bites made by flies - hehehe - too many in one area can weaken the leather and cause it to tear
Open scars (wide and thin in the middle) - unhealed sort of - can tear and leave large holes if stretched too far
Pits - tiny indents in the leather - like moon craters - too many in one place can weaken the leather kind of like an open scar
Like I said, I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years (lmao) so I have seen all of the things in the above links many many times. I had to cut and inspect the leather. I know what is good and what isn't. Some things are just a matter of personal preference. Sometimes you have to really look at the underside (suede) of the leather also. Cuts in the underside can make the top side weak. You may not notice these cuts simply by looking at the leather from the top side. Remember, cowhides are sheered (cut) from the cow. This can result in manmade defects. Some of these manmade defects can ruin the leather.
If anyone has any questions, please ask. I am here to help. I really do know a lot about leather.
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 10:36 PM
This is pretty much what I have been saying...
Why are there different grades and prices?
Leather is a natural material graded much like a diamond. The fewer imperfections on the hide, the rarer it is for manufacturers of furniture to acquire. When there is less supply, the item is costlier. Hides are sourced all over the world. The cooler climates (like in Northern Europe), combined with the animals being raised in controlled pastures or pens, produces hides with few imperfections. Regardless of the manufacturer or their grading system, these cooler climate hides are the top of the line. Conversely, the hotter the climate, and the climates with the greatest extremes, combined with the animals being raised on an open range, will produce hides that are more weathered, aged, scarred, bug bitten, etc. These imperfections must then be processed (buffed or sanded or filled) before dyed. By far, there is a greater quantity of this type of hide available in the world - this means the supply is great and the price low. The cost of raw leather is determined by the origin of the animal and by supply and demand, not by where the hides are tanned!
I took it from one of the links DZ314 posted.
audiopro
05-09-2005, 10:38 PM
If anyone has any questions, please ask. I am here to help. I really do know a lot about leather.
Yeah, but how long have you worked with automotive leather!!?!?! :twisted:
I've still got to recover my rear seat that the dog's nail punctured.. :(
Trying to decide between replacing with factory GM Pleather, or re-doing the entire set with real leather... :?
DZ314
05-09-2005, 10:41 PM
I know, Erik. I wanted to post those to reinforce what you've been saying and also to just give people another realiable source of info.
ThePoolHustler
05-09-2005, 10:45 PM
I know, Erik. I wanted to post those to reinforce what you've been saying and also to just give people another realiable source of info.
I know. I'm not disagreeing with your posts. They are accurate. I am just reinforcing what the information states on those links.
After working very closely with automotive leather for 5.5 years...hahaha...I would say that I am somewhat of an expert.
8) 8) 8) 8)
audiopro
05-09-2005, 10:51 PM
I know, Erik. I wanted to post those to reinforce what you've been saying and also to just give people another realiable source of info.
I know. I'm not disagreeing with your posts. They are accurate. I am just reinforcing what the information states on those links.
After working very closely with automotive leather for 5.5 years...hahaha...I would say that I am somewhat of an expert.
8) 8) 8) 8)
lol... You know what this reminds me of now???
"I was living in my _TINY_, One bedroo apartment, painting houses... And I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way!! By placing tiny, classified ads in hundreds of papers, I made my fortune!"
Good ole Don Duprey.. :)
Okay, I am really going to bed now.. I gotta move these refrigerators.
Wow Erik. From listening to you I bet you have 5 to 6 yrs experience working with automotive leather.
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-10-2005, 07:20 AM
Wow Erik. From listening to you I bet you have 5 to 6 yrs experience working with automotive leather.
LWW
Yeah...I worked with automotive leather for about 5.5 years. :wink:
ThePoolHustler
05-10-2005, 09:27 PM
I believe it. :wink:
LWW
You believe that I worked with automotive leather for 5.5 years? Awesome!!!!
8) 8) 8) 8)
audiopro
05-10-2005, 09:37 PM
Erik, can yo loan me your hog-ring pliers? I just got a new seat cover and can not for the life of me find my ring pliers.. Damn't.. Moving sucks!!!
btw, how long did you say you worked with automotive leather?? :wink:
DZ314
05-10-2005, 09:59 PM
I've owned leather for 15.5 years, not including baseball gloves. :lol:
I've worn the same leather shoes for 5 and a half years.
LWW
DZ314
05-11-2005, 01:49 PM
It comes down to being an imformed consumer and also personal preference. Once you know the pros and cons, you weigh those against your personal preference and make the choice. There is no right or wrong choice between leather and vinyl.
Vinyl should always be le$$ expen$ive though. After all Naugas don't eat much.
LWW
DZ314
05-11-2005, 01:58 PM
Vinyl should always be le$$ expen$ive though. After all Naugas don't eat much.
LWW
I agree 100%, and in most cases that is so.
ThePoolHustler
05-11-2005, 07:32 PM
Erik, can yo loan me your hog-ring pliers? I just got a new seat cover and can not for the life of me find my ring pliers.. Damn't.. Moving sucks!!!
btw, how long did you say you worked with automotive leather?? :wink:
Ummm...I don't have any hog-ring pliers. I used to have a special knife so that I could handcut the leather. We used metal templates...placed them on the leather (cowhide)...and then cut around them with a special knife. Some templates were very difficult to cut around. They ranged from all different shapes and sizes. I'm not sure where the knife is right now though.
I worked with automotive leather for about 5.5 years. Awesome eh? lol
If you send me your seat cover, I can take a closer look at it. Is it leather? lmao
8) 8) 8) 8)
ThePoolHustler
05-11-2005, 07:35 PM
I've owned leather for 15.5 years, not including baseball gloves. :lol:
I've owned leather for many years now also...jackets, gloves, shoes, baseball gloves, etc. At least I know the difference between good and bad leather now after working with automotive leather for 5.5 years. hahaha
ThePoolHustler
05-11-2005, 07:40 PM
It comes down to being an imformed consumer and also personal preference. Once you know the pros and cons, you weigh those against your personal preference and make the choice. There is no right or wrong choice between leather and vinyl.
You are right. It all comes down to personal preference. However, vinyl is closer to "perfect" than leather. It is also much cheaper. They use vinyl in car seats, along with leather. It is usually used in the areas that take the most stress and that require something a little stronger than leather.
I hope that I am able to keep you all informed about the world of leather so that you can make a wise choice.
8) 8) 8) 8)
audiopro
05-11-2005, 08:40 PM
Ummm...I don't have any hog-ring pliers. I used to have a special knife so that I could handcut the leather. We used metal templates...placed them on the leather (cowhide)...and then cut around them with a special knife. Some templates were very difficult to cut around. They ranged from all different shapes and sizes. I'm not sure where the knife is right now though.
I worked with automotive leather for about 5.5 years. Awesome eh? lol
If you send me your seat cover, I can take a closer look at it. Is it leather? lmao
8) 8) 8) 8)
You dont have ring-pliers and you worked in automotive leather for 5.5 years!?!? I take you did not do the installs of the covers onto the seats then, as ya kinda need ring-pliers for almost every seat install I have ever done.. Err, umm.. Seen done..
DZ314
05-11-2005, 08:48 PM
I have some snap ring pliers.
audiopro
05-11-2005, 08:55 PM
I have some snap ring pliers.
I gots a whole set of those! And I keep them in the top chest drawer, so I know where those are!! :(
ThePoolHustler
05-12-2005, 05:50 PM
Ummm...I don't have any hog-ring pliers. I used to have a special knife so that I could handcut the leather. We used metal templates...placed them on the leather (cowhide)...and then cut around them with a special knife. Some templates were very difficult to cut around. They ranged from all different shapes and sizes. I'm not sure where the knife is right now though.
I worked with automotive leather for about 5.5 years. Awesome eh? lol
If you send me your seat cover, I can take a closer look at it. Is it leather? lmao
8) 8) 8) 8)
You dont have ring-pliers and you worked in automotive leather for 5.5 years!?!? I take you did not do the installs of the covers onto the seats then, as ya kinda need ring-pliers for almost every seat install I have ever done.. Err, umm.. Seen done..
Greg,
I cut the leather by hand with a "special" knife. The pieces were then shipped somewhere else to be sewn together, foamed, and put on the seat frames.
By the way, I did this for 5.5 years. hehehe
Erik
audiopro
05-12-2005, 06:04 PM
By the way, I did this for 5.5 years. hehehe
Erik
LMAO... :lol:
ThePoolHustler
05-12-2005, 06:15 PM
By the way, I did this for 5.5 years. hehehe
Erik
LMAO... :lol:
Why are you laughing at someone that cut automotive leather for 5.5 years? hehehe
audiopro
05-12-2005, 06:26 PM
Is that 5.5 years on the Julian calendar, or Gregorian?!? :twisted:
ThePoolHustler
05-12-2005, 07:41 PM
Is that 5.5 years on the Julian calendar, or Gregorian?!? :twisted:
Both!!!!
It was so much fun cutting automotive leather for 5.5 years on either calendar. lol
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/topics/CalendricalSystems.html
audiopro
05-12-2005, 08:43 PM
he he.. I didn't make you go look up those calendars did I?? 8O
DZ314
05-12-2005, 10:20 PM
he he.. I didn't make you go look up those calendars did I?? 8O
Google-rific!!! :lol:
audiopro
05-12-2005, 10:31 PM
he he.. I didn't make you go look up those calendars did I?? 8O
Google-rific!!! :lol:
ROTFLMAO.. Yup yup... :lol: :twisted:
I wish I knew someone experienced working with leather.
LWW
DZ314
05-13-2005, 11:04 AM
Yeah, someone with about 5.5 years experience. :wink:
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 05:44 PM
We use a synthetic because it will last longer, feel better and is more consistent than real leather. We are researching alternatives as we speak with real leathers and more synthetics.
What legal ramifications are present with us using a synthetic? Ultra Leather is a trademarked name and is the material they use for the upholstry of the Gulfstream 4, which is a $30M jet and for high dollar Recreational Vehicles.
This is what I have been trying to tell everyone when it comes to vinyl (synthetic) vs. leather.
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 05:48 PM
I wish I knew someone experienced working with leather.
LWW
I am experienced with leather. However, I no longer work with it. I used to work with it. I worked with it for 5.5 years.
8) 8) 8) 8)
spartan
05-13-2005, 05:49 PM
i have seen ultra leather that has separated, peeled, bubbled and flaked. i dont think its as durable as a good quality leather wrap put on by a custom cuemaker (not mass production). but then again i dont have 5.5 years of experience. :lol:
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 05:54 PM
i have seen ultra leather that has separated, peeled, bubbled and flaked. i dont think its as durable as a good quality leather wrap put on by a custom cuemaker (not mass production). but then again i dont have 5.5 years of experience. :lol:
There are imperfections in every product in existence. I hate to tell you that. I'm sorry if you have had first-hand experience with these imperfections. The facts still remain that vinyl is more consistent, feels better, and lasts longer than leather. That is probably why they use it in the $30M Gulfstream 4.
spartan
05-13-2005, 05:56 PM
i bet a good quality piece of vinyl is better than leather. just like phonelic is better than ivory. its a synthetic but it takes away from the artistic value of the cue. IMO
audiopro
05-13-2005, 06:00 PM
There are imperfections in every product in existence. I hate to tell you that. I'm sorry if you have had first-hand experience with these imperfections. The facts still remain that vinyl is more consistent, feels better, and lasts longer than leather. That is probably why they use it in the $30M Gulfstream 4.
You mean GOOD Vinyl is better than leather.. :)
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:02 PM
i bet a good quality piece of vinyl is better than leather. just like phonelic is better than ivory. its a synthetic but it takes away from the artistic value of the cue. IMO
Why can't vinyl be artistic? It is a form of artistic media. There are lots of materials that can be used in art. Don't you know anything about art?
LMAO
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:03 PM
Here is a definition of "media"...
"The materials used in a specific artistic technique: oils as a medium."
You could use vinyl as a medium...couldn't you? I most definitely think so. lol
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:04 PM
There are imperfections in every product in existence. I hate to tell you that. I'm sorry if you have had first-hand experience with these imperfections. The facts still remain that vinyl is more consistent, feels better, and lasts longer than leather. That is probably why they use it in the $30M Gulfstream 4.
You mean GOOD Vinyl is better than leather.. :)
Yes...GOOD vinyl is better than GOOD leather. There is BAD vinyl and there is BAD leather. I should know. I worked with leather for 5.5 years.
LMAO
spartan
05-13-2005, 06:05 PM
erik i gave my opinion on why i think its takes away from its artistic value. dont make this personal again. and when i said artistic value most will agree a cue with a leather wrap and a ivory joint is more arsistic than a cue with a vinyl wrap and a phonolic joint.
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:29 PM
erik i gave my opinion on why i think its takes away from its artistic value. dont make this personal again. and when i said artistic value most will agree a cue with a leather wrap and a ivory joint is more arsistic than a cue with a vinyl wrap and a phonolic joint.
Interesting!!!! How am I making this personal? Is it because I asked if you knew anything about art? I believe that is simply a question. Is it not? Stop taking things so personal Spartan.
How someone values art, and what makes something artisitc, is all in the eye of the beholder. You may value leather. I may value vinyl more. You may value ivory. I may value stainless steel more. People perceive art in many different ways. You may perceive a photo of a naked woman as disgusting, gross, etc. I may perceive it as art. Do you understand what I am saying?
I can't argue with that.
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:31 PM
I can't argue with that.
LWW
Nope! There is no argument. :wink:
And come closing time beauty is in the eye of the beerholder,
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-13-2005, 06:37 PM
And come closing time beauty is in the eye of the beerholder,
LWW
EXACTLY!!!!
After a few drinks, almost everyone looks good. lol
spartan
05-13-2005, 06:39 PM
erik i gave my opinion and then you said do you know anything about art? thats what you said and you made it personal. reread your posts if you have to.
DZ314
05-13-2005, 10:38 PM
Yeah, asking that question was throwing a barb. Let's digress and not get to semantics. Art is art, but I don't think that vinyl and other synthetics are as widely appealing as art as leather and other natural materials. It is clear that Erik is biased against leather. Do Michael Capone, Tim Scruggs, and other high end custom cue makers use vinyl wraps?
Well let's face it we live in a capitalist economy, not that this is bad because it's great, and each of the makers is not in business to make cues they are in business to make money.
Where I'm going with that is that the public "perceives" leather as better and more expensive. The public "perceives" vinyl as worse and cheap. Whether that perception is accurate or not makes no difference to this discussion.
A cuemaker which markets the use of leather has given a perception of higher quality and is thus able to command a higher price for the end product. A cuemaker which markets the use of vinyl has given a perception of lower quality which the market will react to adversely.
Back to the original point Predator markets "ultra leather" and commands a $120 premium for that over a no wrap cue. I am quite sertain that they would be unable to do this if they used the words "ultra vinyl" even though the end product would be the same.
I'm sure the marketing people know this and IMHO this word parsing, trademarked or not, has to me lowered my perception of an otherwise fine product.
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:14 AM
I don't think you guys understand "art". Leather is a material. Vinyl is a material. Different materials are used in art. Using leather in something doesn't mean it is more artistic than using vinyl. Not eveyone paints with oils. Some people paint with watercolors. Those that paint with watercolors sell their paintings for a lot of money and are considered to be very artistic. Some watercolor paintings sell for more than some oil paintings. Some people also paint in acrylics and other media. Some people cut shapes out of paper (and other materials) and glue them all over a canvas and then paint them different colors and call it an abstract. There are people that create sculptures out of different media...metal, wood, plastic, ice, soap, etc. There is computer/graphic art. There are people that simply draw pictures and color them to make cartoons. Some people use crayons and colored pencils to create art.
To say that using leather vs. vinyl makes something more artistic is ludicrous. It's ridiculous. Like I said before, it is all in the eye of the beholder. I might consider something as very artistic. You may not. I may consider a water bottle to be very artistic...the material, the shape, the curves, the colors used in the labels, etc. You may think of a water bottle as a hunk of plastic to just throw out when you are done drinking the water. Maybe I could use the water bottles to create something very artistic. I could use them as a medium. This is where we get the saying..."One person's trash is another person's treasure." It's absolutely true. What you see in something may not be what I see in it. Some people aren't very creative and don't have creative minds. Others do.
Spartan...you're right...I asked if you knew anything about art? Big deal! It was a question. You always take things too personal. It has been quite apparent after reading many of your posts and private messages that you have sent to me.
DZ314...I have nothing against leather. Where did you get that information? I never said that I didn't like leather. Did I? As for this statement, "Art is art, but I don't think that vinyl and other synthetics are as widely appealing as art as leather and other natural materials." That is your opinion. Like I stated earlier, it is all in the eye of the beholder. Also, what do you mean by "art is art". Not all art is the same. There are huge differences. Maybe you don't see things in a creative fashion. Therefore, everything looks the same to you. Some people have creative minds. Others don't.
spartan
05-14-2005, 09:24 AM
so what you are saying is we dont understand art because we strongly disagree with you? :roll:
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:32 AM
Well let's face it we live in a capitalist economy, not that this is bad because it's great, and each of the makers is not in business to make cues they are in business to make money.
Where I'm going with that is that the public "perceives" leather as better and more expensive. The public "perceives" vinyl as worse and cheap. Whether that perception is accurate or not makes no difference to this discussion.
A cuemaker which markets the use of leather has given a perception of higher quality and is thus able to command a higher price for the end product. A cuemaker which markets the use of vinyl has given a perception of lower quality which the market will react to adversely.
Back to the original point Predator markets "ultra leather" and commands a $120 premium for that over a no wrap cue. I am quite sertain that they would be unable to do this if they used the words "ultra vinyl" even though the end product would be the same.
I'm sure the marketing people know this and IMHO this word parsing, trademarked or not, has to me lowered my perception of an otherwise fine product.
LWW
Absolutely!!!! Amen bra!!!!
The way we "perceive" things is because of what others have "tricked" us into believing. Honestly, I like leather. I also like vinyl. It's like comparing a genuine diamond to a cubic zirconia. One is natural and has flaws. The other is manmade and has very few flaws. What you think is better is simply up to you. Of course, we have been tricked into believing that genuine diamonds are better when in reality they are full of flaws. These flaws are called "inclusions".
Flaws in diamonds...
"The flaws may include chips, cracks, black spots, crystals, or clouds within the diamonds. While some inclusions are merely cosmetic and will not change, others may become more pronounced as time goes by. A little chip or crack now may become bigger or even take over a diamond down the road."
When buying a diamond you are buying an inferior product compared to something like a cubic zirconia. We have been "tricked" or "deceived" into believing that diamonds are better. They aren't better. They are simply more RARE. That is what gives them their value.
Leather isn't really a RARE commodity. There are lots of cows out there. I guess it really depends on what type of leather we are talking about.
Because diamonds are RARE, people demand more of them. We all want things that others don't have. It all comes down to simple economics. The more something is in demand, the higher the price will be. Some people think that higher prices equals higher quality and a better product. This is not always true. Diamonds are not flawless. Cubic Zirconias are pretty close to flawless. Leather is not flawless. Vinyl is pretty close to flawless. Would you buy a pool cue with lots of flaws in it...chips, cracks, black spots, etc? I doubt it. Why not though? Isn't this what makes things more "artsy fartsy"? I dare one of you to go out and buy a brand new pool cue for $3000 (cost of a decent diamond ring) and have the retailer or cuemaker smack it with a hammer and put some chips and cracks in it. Maybe you can have them spray some black paint on it too. I bet NONE of you would do this. If not, then why do you buy genuine diamonds and leather? Just curious!!!!
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:33 AM
so what you are saying is we dont understand art because we strongly disagree with you? :roll:
How can you disagree with what I am saying about art? If you disagree, then you are ignorant about art. Sorry, but it is true.
The perception of "art" is all in the eye of the beholder.
spartan
05-14-2005, 09:37 AM
i wish i was as smart as you.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:38 AM
i wish i was as smart as you.
Me too!!!! Maybe someday you will be. lmao
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:42 AM
People buy Picasso's because they are RARE, not because they are great paintings, etc. Some of them are extremely ugly. I have seen better. You may pay $20M for a Picasso. I doubt I would. I would rather spend my $20M on other forms of art. Some people like Picasso's. Others like cars and consider some cars to be works of art. Right? Maybe I will spend my $20M on water bottles. lol
spartan
05-14-2005, 09:46 AM
lets just agree to disagree. dont make things personal. you did that when you asked me if i knew anything about art implying that you are someone better. i will not post in this thread again. thanks.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:49 AM
lets just agree to disagree. dont make things personal. you did that when you asked me if i knew anything about art implying that you are someone better. i will not post in this thread again. thanks.
Stop being a baby Spartan. If you are taking things personal, then you have underlying issues. Go cry somewhere else. Gee whiz! I've only directed my posts toward you a few times in this thread.
BTW, when did I say I was better? You always read too deeply into things.
spartan
05-14-2005, 09:53 AM
erik please leave me alone.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 10:22 AM
erik you have been posting in this thread like you are an expert on leather and now art and that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and ignorant. notice when there is a conflict on here you are the common denominator. its always with you. go sit on your throne somewhere else. i know im not only one who has told you that. have a nice day! thanks!
I thought that you were done posting here? It seems to me that you are a common denominator in these threads also. You are always around when there is a disagreement. You are always disagreeing with me. Why is that? When it comes to leather and art, I honestly don't think you know as much as I do. Did you work with leather for 5.5 years? I grew up taking art classes (including art history) my entire life. My cousin is a very well-educated artist also. He actually went to college for it. I spent a lot of time with him when I was growing up. He taught me a lot. He uses all mediums...oils, pencil, clay, pen, watercolors, colored pencils, acrylics, etc. You name it, he probably uses it. My dad also paints and uses oils as his medium.
Have a good day Connor!!!! :wink:
spartan
05-14-2005, 10:29 AM
thanks i will.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 10:31 AM
erik please leave me alone.
Spartan...STOP BEING A BABY!!!! Don't address me in your posts and I won't respond to you. You said you were leaving, but yet you are still here addressing me in your posts. And you state that I am the common denominator. I find that very silly.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 10:43 AM
And before everyone starts thinking that I am too cheap to buy a genuine diamond ring for a woman, you are wrong. A good woman is hard (rare) to find. Therefore, she deserves a rare piece of jewelry (stone) called a genuine diamond.
:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
You guys need to get a life :!:
If you don't want to get a life, then there is a general chit-chat room and the shout out box for these non topic related arguments between the 2 of you and/or anybody else
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 03:47 PM
You guys need to get a life :!:
If you don't want to get a life, then there is a general chit-chat room and the shout out box for these non topic related arguments between the 2 of you and/or anybody else
And you're saying that I don't have a life? News to me!!!! You are here way more than I Mr. Skor. Don't preach to me about getting a life. :wink:
I am not the one taking things personal. I am simply trying to stay on topic about "Ultra-Leather" wraps. As I have stated before, I worked with leather for 5.5 years. I believe I have stayed on topic until another member went off-topic talking about "art". Let's not turn this around on me. Thank you very much!
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 03:50 PM
This page...
http://seyberts.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120
...the 6th post down made by Spartan. This is where we went off-topic. What did any of this have to do with "artistic value"? Just curious!
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 03:57 PM
Here is the first post under this topic...
"I have a P2 with ultra-leather wrap. I was told that the leather is not real leather but some kinda of synthetic material. Is this true? If it is real leather, how is it that the texture is different from other leather wraps?
Sorry for repeating this question as I realize I may have asked this in the wrong place."
We have been talking about "ultra-leather" wraps, not their "artistic value". I have first-hand experience working with leather. I have made posts regarding my experience with leather. I'm not sure why Spartan went off on a tangent about how leather has more "artistic value". What does this have to do with "ultra-leather" being real leather or a synthetic material? It has nothing to do with it at all. I don't believe I am the one taking things off-topic here. You should really read the posts before making such statements Skor.
audiopro
05-14-2005, 04:00 PM
If you guys are going to bicker, take it off the forum.. Geeze... :roll:
Well I'm going to chime in say that IMHO leather is mort art than vinyl and my reasons are that no vinyl I have ever touched had quite the feel of leather or quite smell of leather.
Leather does have more imperfections and that can be part of it's beauty. In the diamond analogy any 2 CZ's are for all practical purposes identical while no 2 diamonds are.
LWW
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 08:49 PM
Well I'm going to chime in say that IMHO leather is mort art than vinyl and my reasons are that no vinyl I have ever touched had quite the feel of leather or quite smell of leather.
Leather does have more imperfections and that can be part of it's beauty. In the diamond analogy any 2 CZ's are for all practical purposes identical while no 2 diamonds are.
LWW
Art is all in the eye of the beholder. Feel, smell, imperfections, etc don't really have anything to do with making something more artistic. It's all a matter of preference. Some people like things perfect. Others like things with flaws. No big deal.
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 08:51 PM
If you guys are going to bicker, take it off the forum.. Geeze... :roll:
I'm not trying to bicker with anyone. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the "cry babies" around here. Geeze!!!! You can't say anything around here without someone taking things personal. I'm not the one that started whining. I'm not the one that went off-topic either. Let's not go down this road again.
Erik, the original question was partly answered by me at the first response to the question, Neil gave the full answer at the 4th response to the original question, then we all went off talking about ultra-leather and the honesty and the legal aspect of using the word leaher.
The post that you refer to is at the 9th page of the tread !!!!, this thread should not be so long.
The "get a life" statement was not refering to the time you're logged on to this forum but to the personal BS that goes sometimes between some of the usres (and it's not the same users all the time, so don't take it personaly), the "get a life" statment was also made with humor and I did NOT mean to offend any of the members of this forum.
We all tend to go off subject here and there, we all joke around a bit and we all post our thoughts and opinions, BUT I suggest we keep some red lines and borders to these type of remarks and if you (any of you, not just you erik :wink: have a personal matter with any other member then use the "Private Messages" tool
ThePoolHustler
05-14-2005, 09:08 PM
Erik, the original question was partly answered by me at the first response to the question, Neil gave the full answer at the 4th response to the original question, then we all went off talking about ultra-leather and the honesty and the legal aspect of using the word leaher.
The post that you refer to is at the 9th page of the tread !!!!, this thread should not be so long.
The "get a life" statement was not refering to the time you're logged on to this forum but to the personal BS that goes sometimes between some of the usres (and it's not the same users all the time, so don't take it personaly), the "get a life" statment was also made with humor and I did NOT mean to offend any of the members of this forum.
We all tend to go off subject here and there, we all joke around a bit and we all post our thoughts and opinions, BUT I suggest we keep some red lines and borders to these type of remarks and if you (any of you, not just you erik :wink: have a personal matter with any other member then use the "Private Messages" tool
I agree!!!! :wink:
dags_lax
05-14-2005, 10:35 PM
Picaso smosho. Give me dogs playing poker. :lol:
audiopro
05-14-2005, 11:34 PM
Erik, the original question was partly answered by me at the first response to the question, Neil gave the full answer at the 4th response to the original question...
... this thread should not be so long...
...BUT I suggest we keep some red lines and borders to these type of remarks and if you (any of you, not just you erik :wink: have a personal matter with any other member then use the "Private Messages" tool
Exactly...
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