See-Saw stroke....

[DEATHTRON]

Ok, so after sending some time on the table today I noticed a few things relating to the "see-saw" stroke...you know, where you go down while youre stroking forward, then back up while you pull back. So when the object ball is frozen on the rail....and you shoot the cue into the rail and send the object ball down the rail into whatever corner pocket...Ive found that when I use the see saw stroke my abiity to make this shot improves. I probably hit 9/10 shots like this, normally i maybe hit 5/10 shots when I try to use a much more level stroke. Also, on long distance shots I notice I can get a much more significant amount of draw as opposed to the level stroke. Anyways, is this normal? I was somewhat under the impression that a see-saw stroke was not really a normal/good thing....can anyone help me out here? Or should I just roll with it because it works for me? And yes, I am not very good, so this probably relates somehow to my skill level.

Zach

[skor]

I don't really understand what is a "see-saw" stroke but it does not sound like a good thing, it might work o.k for now but in the long run it will ruin your game, keeping the cue level and making sure that besides the pendulum movement nothing else moves is one of the basics of billiards, if it's harder for you then it means that you need to practice your basics more, it also mean that on some shots you are not feeling secure enough in your ability to make them, you let what I call "the fear of missing" to take over your game, what you need to do is to set up those shots over and over until you'll get comfortable with then and they become a routine for you.

[DEATHTRON]

I think Ive heard that Francisco Bustamante uses a see-saw stroke....

[DZ314]

I would say he compensates well with it because he has always used it. This is much like Arnold Palmer's golf swing. It worked for him fine, but no one would want to teach that technique to you because it is flawed and difficult to use consistenly.

[DEATHTRON]

Ya....Ive seen a couple of other people do the same thing before...but this just goes to show more that I need lessons bad.

Zach

[skor]

Ya....Ive seen a couple of other people do the same thing before...but this just goes to show more that I need lessons bad.

Zach

maybe instead of saving money for a new cue that you don't need, you should save money and get lessons

[DZ314]

I am going to get lessons before I take ownership of the DZ. I have to practice what I preach ya know. :wink:

[ThePoolHustler]

Lessons would be a wise investment. However, everyone is different. What works for one may not work for another. A see-saw stroke might be okay for some. It might not work for others. If you shoot well with a see-saw stroke, stick with it. Why change a good thing? It's up to you. Tiger Woods changes his swing quite often. I think he has revamped it a few times.

[DZ314]

He has never used the Palmer style swing, the fundamentals remain the same.

[DEATHTRON]

Skor...I got the money for lessons lined up...it will just take a little time to get that money....the money for the cue will be readily avaliable in august...im just trying to plan my money out now.

Zach

[skor]

Zach, your money is non of my concern but you just got a new cue (my jacoby) why would you go and buy a new cue so soon, your in college now I'm sure you could spend that money on better things, a new cue could wait, I sure your parents would love to get you any new cue as a graduation present ;)

[DEATHTRON]

Very valid point Skor...There is a reason I never let myself have money lying around for spending....I like the Jacoby more and more everyday and I love it to death. To answer your question about why do I want a new one...well...I guess I am just never satisfied. I know it sounds dumb, and this is why normally I always talk my finances through with my parents....they are always right and know everything Im convinced....they helped my make my budget and it has worked like a charm. There are lots of things I could spend my money on, but I want a new cue for whatever reason, and by the end of summer I think I will have the disposable income to spend on one. Just my thoughts, I always run things through my head and out loud sometimes (especially here on the forums) to get a feel for my idea.

Zach

[DZ314]

Ya....Ive seen a couple of other people do the same thing before...but this just goes to show more that I need lessons bad.

Zach

maybe instead of saving money for a new cue that you don't need, you should save money and get lessons

If you want to go that way, no one really needs a cue as long as there are house cues around. And if you do buy one, no more than the very basic $40 two piece is necessary......if you want to tell people that they don't need to spend money.

[skor]

I'm not telling no one not to spend money or not to buy new cues, all I said is that he just got a new cue a few months ago and if he is short of cash then he shouldn't need to push him self economically speaking to get a new cue any time soon, if he didn't have a cue and he was into billiard I would tell him to save some money and get a nice cue but again he has a nice custom made cue with an extra predator shaft, a predator sneaky pete, a bunjee jumper and a nice instroke case, how many amateur can say that they have all that ?

[DZ314]

I understand that, I just wanted to point out that you used the "don't need" argument earlier on and then I stated my rebuttal. :D

[spartan]

Ya....Ive seen a couple of other people do the same thing before...but this just goes to show more that I need lessons bad.

Zach

maybe instead of saving money for a new cue that you don't need, you should save money and get lessons

skor that reply wasnt neccesary. it is his money. if wants to spend it on a cue, so be it. you dont have to respond so rudely.

[audiopro]

I dont think skor is being rude. And yes it is Zach's money. But we all come here for help, education, etc.. And skor is only providing his opinion that the money _may_ be better spent on lessons. I happen to agree with skor. In the end it is up to Zach, but there is nothing wrong with people giving advice here..

Quite honestly, I doubt Zach has a problem with skor giving advice..

[skor]

I did NOT mean it to sound rude, if any one got offended by me then I apologize, I think that Zach understood me and what I ment, my name is not Darth Vader and I'm not his father so I'm not in a position to tell him or any one else what to do with their money, but I can give a suggestion and that's what I did.

[audiopro]

I think spartan is stressed out or something. Seems a bit touchy... :(

Sup spartan!? Have a coke and a smile.. Or, err... BEER!!! :D

[DZ314]

Drink and be merry! :D

[audiopro]

For tomorrow we die...

[spartan]

i am a little stressed out. im sorry skor. i do think a better more friendlier response is zach you have a very nice cue. you will get more out of the game by taking private lessons. once again im cranky im sorry.

[DEATHTRON]

No hard feelings anywhere, I value you all's opinions very much. "2 brains are better than 1". And yes, I got what Skor was implying, and he was valid in his statement.

Zach

[spartan]

its better to take lessons as early in your "career" as possible. you dont want to develop bad habits that can develop over time.

[DEATHTRON]

Yes...this is true, and thats why hopefully early this summer I will be taking lessons, Im also tired of losing to mr "texas 9-ball open champion"......I want to beat him in the ground!

Zach

[spartan]

taking lessons only teaches you what to do. the results come from practice.

[DEATHTRON]

I know....slowly but surely....I have beat him once for like the 20 times hes beat me.....

Zach

[spartan]

thats another way to get better. play better players. gamble a little. play inder pressure.

[ThePoolHustler]

I did NOT mean it to sound rude, if any one got offended by me then I apologize, I think that Zach understood me and what I ment, my name is not Darth Vader and I'm not his father so I'm not in a position to tell him or any one else what to do with their money, but I can give a suggestion and that's what I did.

It's just the way the reply was worded that makes it sound a little rude I think. :wink:

[ThePoolHustler]

taking lessons only teaches you what to do. the results come from practice.

This is absolutely true. Practice makes perfect. If you don't practice what you're taught, you will never learn.

[ThePoolHustler]

thats another way to get better. play better players. gamble a little. play inder pressure.

Fury and I need to do this...bet each other and play under pressure.

You up for it Fury? hehehe

We could play races to 5 or 7 for $20 or something. The first one to 5 or 7 wins...obviously. The loser must ante up. I think we could improve our game(s) greatly by doing this. Right now, we just play for fun. We aren't learning much from each other any more. There is no pressure. We need more pressure.

Of course, we would probably have to do something like this at a pool hall where we can have the table as long as we need it. I think they closed that pool hall in Adrian...didn't they?

Fury and I played the other night and I think we were pretty even. I may have beat him 1-2 more games than he beat me. It was pretty close.

[DZ314]

Yes, they closed that pool hall but someone else bought it and it going to probably set up another one there.

[ThePoolHustler]

Yeah...I noticed it was closed the other day when I drove by there. I didn't think it would last long. They didn't get much business.

[DZ314]

Nope, they were not even breaking even I am sure.

[ThePoolHustler]

Hopefully the next person knows how to run a pool hall and get business.

[LWW]

Skor is blunt like me.

I can't speak for him but my read on the comment was that if you could only afford 1 of the 2 then lessons would probably be the wiser choice, correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said if you can afford a $15K cue, a $30K table, and lessons from Mosconi's ghost go for it.

LWW

[DZ314]

Of course. I don't know anyone who would question that.

[LWW]

My accountant would when I turned in a receipt for the seance to reach Willie.

LWW

[DZ314]

That's not funny.

[LWW]

That's exactly what they would say.

LWW

[DZ314]

Anyway, I really look forward to improving my game through lessons with Rick. 8)

[LWW]

There is a guy named Marty Rimlinger here in Dayton. Plays on the UPA tour. 2 hr lessons are $30 for lesson 1, $40 for 2 thru 5, and the 6th is free, PLUS the guy will shoot all you want with you afterwards.

He's the best 1 on 1 I've ever played against and will teach you a lot.

LWW

[DZ314]

I have heard of Marty, he sounds like a good teacher of the game. :)

[LWW]

Martys the bomb...and cheap to. 8)

LWW

[showboat]

Getting this back on topic, I believe it is best that after you have established a solid game and fundamentals, you should seek out the best thing that feels comfortable for you. Like Mark Wilson, he almost delibertely pumps his elbow up and down. Maybe this is what "feels" just right for him. For Francisco it's more a full on see-saw stroke.

[Black_Cat_5791]

How Nick Varner's hand shakes as he strokes the cue. What's important is that your able to hit the proper spot on the cue ball, and that it's smooth and consistant each and every time. 8)

[DEATHTRON]

Does it even have to be smooth? Keith McCready uses a poke stroke..not smooth at all, Willie Mosconi used a poke stroke on 80% of his shots, or so I heard. Seems to me, the important thing about a stroke is that you can do it over and over again, doesnt have to be pretty, just straight and repeatable.

Zach

[dags_lax]

To get the cue ball to do what you want you need to do three things correctly.

1) strick the cue ball in the correct spot.
2) hit the cueball in the correct direction.
3) hit the cue ball at the correct speed.

All three can be accomplished with the worlds worst stroke but it is much easier to get the desired results with a good stroke.

[dags_lax]

To get the cue ball to do what you want you need to do three things correctly.

1) strike the cue ball in the correct spot.
2) hit the cueball in the correct direction.
3) hit the cue ball at the correct speed.

All three can be accomplished with the worlds worst stroke but it is much easier to get the desired results with a good stroke.

[showboat]

Does it even have to be smooth? Keith McCready uses a poke stroke..not smooth at all, Willie Mosconi used a poke stroke on 80% of his shots, or so I heard. Seems to me, the important thing about a stroke is that you can do it over and over again, doesnt have to be pretty, just straight and repeatable.

Zach
Helena Thornfeldt has an annoying poke stroke....there is no backstroke what so ever.....I've seen her miss such simple shots and in crucial matches....oh well....she'll learn when she's tired of losing.....

Keith McCready's stroke is more a side arm stroke....looks really weird but very effective......

[!ArmenG]

Good topic! Very useful :):) (http://download-ringtones.seo-toolz.com/)

[J3rry]

I've seen some good players use a stroke similar to the "see-saw," I myself use a half see-saw. Seems like I get a more fluid, natural motion allowing me to pocket balls easier. I think it's just a preference.

[DEATHTRON]

Ya...I dont do it anymore...so this threads purpose is over.

Zach

[jkregan]

The Monk claims there are four strokes. Willie Mosconi used the "punch" stroke for most of his shots. From what I have understood, the punch stroke is just a compact stroke that accelerates through the ball like a boxer punches through his target.

The advantages of a smooth, level stroke is that it is more easily repeatable and builds better muscle memory.

There is a guy at my league who uses the most exaggerated see-saw stroke I have ever seen. He also hits almost every shot with a grossly jacked up cue. When he is on, his is really on. When he is off, on the other hand, he can't predict which cushion he will hit first.

Watch the giants of the game, past and present, and you will rarely see such ruffles and florishes in stroke except for the Phillipino players. For some reason it works for them but, as has been said a lot in this thread, it is NOT something a learning player to emulate.

By the way, Nick Varner has a nerve disorder that causes his back hand to shake like it does. If you watch him play, however, his hand steadies down for his stroke.

[pool808]

one way to reduce your see-saw stroke is to shorten up the distance of your bridge hand and the cue ball. this will force you to have a more level stroke. having a see-saw stroke can work for some people but for the majority it will prevent you to get better. i hope this simple adjustment helps.