z-shafts warping question...

[4k2]

After reading about people expressing their issues on z-shafts warping, i just want to ask the following questions...

How many of you guys use/know a friend using a z-shaft? and how many of them have actually warped?

I just want to know the chances of a z-shaft warping if in case i buy one. I'm hesitating after reading about it (warping), hopefully you guys can help me decide.

Thanks! :)

rock![/b]

[DeanF]

I have been using a Z shaft off and on for the last 12 months and I have not had any trouble with mine warping.

I don't know anyone else that has one.

I hope this helps.

DeanF

Sorry if I forgot to log in

[spartan]

my z warped in 6 months. it was in the same case (instroke cowboy) as my 3 other 314s and they are all straight as an arrow. i have always taken great care of my cues and the z was the first time i ever had a problem.

[4k2]

hey konur,

would you recommend me to use 314 shafts instead of the z-shaft? how do you find the difference between the two different shafts?

do you have friends who also have warped z-shafts? sorry for being repetitive, i'm about to order my predators soon and would like to get some advice...

[spartan]

i wave seen 1 other z warped and their are a few people here who have said their z has warped. i would go with a 314 and a tiger tip. you can look at other 314 vs z discussions in this thread also.

[4k2]

thanks konur,

yes, i've read the other threads and so my hesitation. I'm actually from the philippines, and with the conditions here, i think the chance of warpage will dramatically increase...

are you using a predator butt? i'm not to familiar with falcon made butts, but i'm curious, are they as good as they cost?

[spartan]

i shoot with a p2. its a great cue. it has a softer hit and i just love the clean look of it. ive been enjoying your posts. you shold make a user name. i see you are interested in a 4k2. its a good cue. nice simple design. cant go wrong with them. get a nice tip though. i like tiger but a talisman or a moori is good as well.

[4k2]

yes I'm thinking of ordering a 4k-2 with moori tips... i've actually tried a 314 and find it a-ok, i'm just curious with the z-shaft because they say it has better technology...

hehe, next question (if you don't mind), playing in a simonis billiard cloth, should i get an 18 oz-ed cue rather than 19 oz? since i'll be needing more softer shots than harder ones?

as you can see i'm really into the details, and i have to admit i haven't played enough to really know all the differences... that's why i'd rather ask and take it from the experts

[Neil Fujiwara]

I checked with Jessica in Warranty and found that we haven't had any spikes in returns due to Z-shaft warpage.

We will keep our eyes open and keep you guys posted. If there is a consistent issue then we will issue a recall and revamp our production procedure. Thank you for bringing this up, we apologize that you had an issue with one of our products.

[spartan]

i would go with a 19 oz cue. most players play with a 19 oz cue. i consider myself a finesse player. i try to move the cueball as litte as possible and try to use as little english as possible and i play with a 20 oz cue. the warp on my z dosent affect playability i still prefer my 314. if theres a place where you can try a z try it out and see if you like it. the pool room i go to is comet billiards. they are an outhorized predator dealer and they have a predator test cue. its basically a sneaky pete that says test cue on it. alot of people try it out and buy cues from there. see if there is a place like that in your area. i hope i helped and i hope you enjoy your predator cue as much as i enjoy mine.

[4k-2]

Neil: Are you saying i should get a z-shaft, thinking that even the 314 can also warp, even if a smaller chance?

i wish there is a predator dealer here that has test cues. that would be the best...

[Spud]

I'm the only guy I know that has one but so far I'm a happy camper. I think it is less forgiving when my stroke is off, but has helped my game overall. If you feel that $200 is the outer limit of what you can spend on a shaft then I'd say go with the 314. If you consider $200 to be 1 night in the casino, then I'd say give the Z a try.

[4k2]

thanks for the tip spud..

how long have you been using your z-shaft? have you noticed any form of warpage?

thanks again

[Nick T.]

4k2 - -
I’ve got two straight from Seybert’s Z-shafts and two that have been modified by a custom cue maker. No problems with any of them.

Since you’re in the Philippines with its high humidity there is more chance of warping with any shaft. A lot of burnishing will “case harden” the wood and help prevent warping.

The choice between the 314, Z, or any other shaft is purely a matter of personal preference - - assuming that the shaft is well made and has a good ferrule and tip. IMO shooting just a few balls isn’t enough to make a good choice - - it takes a lot of ball banging to really get a feel for a new shaft.

[raemondo]

I have a Z, I used it for about 9 months in north america and 3 months in southeast asia, and I have no problems with it. I have a moori tip with it.

[Spud]

My Z is new I've had it 4 mos. its straight. Got my 1st 314 in '00' its straight. Got my 2nd 314 in '02' it has some minor wobble.

[jkregan]

Although, knock wood, I have straight shafts on all my cues, a small warp will not affect the playability of a cue at all. It is a twist that will cause you all kinds of grief.

[Neil Fujiwara]

Any shaft that is made of wood has the chance to warp. Even some graphite or fiberglass clad shafts are warped, most likely from the process they go through during manufacturing them that way.

We do what we can to prevent warping: Splicing, resting between turns and Nelsonite.

Even so, wood is a natural material that doesn't have a perfect memory, so there will always be a chance for it to warp. That is why there is only one company to warranty a cue/ shaft against warpage, and I don't see how they can afford to do it. However they accomplish it, more power to them, one day we hope to learn the secret.

[CJK]

The secret would be enough of a profit margin built in to allow for replacement any time a shaft warped AND a player happened to notice it AND happened to realize there is a warranty AND went through the steps to return the shaft. Unfortunately, due to the steps that go into making the Predator shafts, if you were to build enough of a profit margin in, the shafts will be extremely expensive.

I have two Predator 314 shafts, each being three years old now, if I remember correctly. No warping problems (knock on wood). My cues stay in the case most of the time, and are well taken care of when they're out (other than the inevitable small ding here and there). I played in the team section of our state VNEA tournament this past weekend (we finished tied for 5-6 in our division :) ) and saw a great deal of disparity in how people treated cues. Some were laying flat on empty pool tables, others (like mine) were either in my hand or in my case at all times, still others were just tossed into a corner or even laying flat on the linoleum floor under the pool tables. Mind you, this is winter in Erie, PA, and people can track snow into the hall, there are people drinking who may spill drinks, and it's not that hard to accidentally kick a cue that's under a table. I'm sure that a lot of those people either have or soon will have warped cues to some degree.

[Neil Fujiwara]

They not only warranty shafts, but the butts too.

[4k2]

Neil...

Thanks for explaining to us what you guys do to prevent cues from warping.

Can I ask your advice? As you may have noticed, I'm currently in the stage of choosing between a 314 shaft and a z-shaft. I can't make up my mind, I was hoping you could help me decide.

You see, I've been using my friend's predator (w/ 314 shaft) for a few weeks now. I find the cue a lot better than the others I've tried. To be honest with you, I actually don't find anything wrong with it. In fact I've noticed my game improve since I used Predator (which is why I want to get one for myself).

My dilemma is this, would you recommend that I play safe by just buying another 314 shaft? Or should I take the leap and buy the z-shaft, knowing that it will/suppose to bring me more advantages (less deflection, more spin, less vibration) when I adjust to it?

Thank you in advance Neil! More power to Predator and to this forum!

[Neil Fujiwara]

If you like the 314 then I would stick with that. But if you think that you could get used to, or prefer a shorter tapered shaft, then I would definitely suggest the Z.

To a certain degree it depends on your preference of shaft diameter and taper, because the benefits of the Z are definitely noticeable. Ultimately it would be great to have both, some days the Z-shaft helps me concentrate on tip placement while I feel more comfortable with the 314's taper. It's nice to have the flexibility to switch back and forth, if you don't want to invest that much into equipment, then I would suggest buying the shaft that feels most comfortable to you.

Thank you for your support, please let me know if you have any other questions.

[4k2]

its hard for me to say that i like the 314 because i haven't tried the z shaft yet.

z shaft question: does having smaller tip diamenter really make pocketing easier? (sorry for the stupid question, i haven't tried playing with a cue that has a tip diameter less than 12mm)


technical question: living in a humid and warm country (philippines), how do you suggest i take care of my cue to keep it from warping? should i apply burnish to harden the top coat of the the shaft?

[Neil Fujiwara]

The smaller tip diameter makes you pay more attention to your tip placement, so you will be more accurate.

And since you don't have to go as far to the edge to apply English, you can stay closer to the center of the cue ball which again will make you more accurate.

Last but not least is the fact that it produces 9% less cue ball error, which means more accuracy and better ball pocketing ability.

I hope this helps.

[LWW]

Keeping a cue from warping shouldnt be difficult as long as it isnt abused.

LWW

[Neil Fujiwara]

LWWW: You would be surprised. I just bought a $2800 cue, brand new, from one of the top 3 cuemakers in the world in my opinion. The cue, even though the wood was rested over 20 years and was turned over the period of 2 years, came out warped when delivered.

Wood is wood, no one can predict what it is going to do where or when. Everyone takes precautions and builds in a fallout rate due to warpage, and every once in a while you will have a cue that will not stay straight no matter how you treat it.

[LWW]

I agree, but you are talking about something that went wrong on the mfg process. Im talking about getting a straight cue, built right, and keeping it that way.

LWW

[Neil Fujiwara]

Which part went wrong in the manufacturing process?

If you could, please list the steps it takes to make a cue, then highlight which steps that could have been at fault to produce a warped cue. I think everyone can learn what you have to teach.

[skor]

Neil, did the shaft warp or the butt ?
what cue is it, I'm very curious and not because it warped
will you post some pictures of this cue

[Neil Fujiwara]

Actually one of the shafts and the butt was warped. I picked up another cue by the same maker and one of the shafts on THAT cue was warped also. There was also a dark spot on the shaft, something that we would make a second grade shaft out of.

The first cue I don't have, I returned it for a refund. The second cue I have, but will not post pictures of it since I don't want to ruin someone's reputation. I post the story for illustration purposes, not to put down someone's work. Sorry.

[LWW]

Neil dont misunderstand me as Im not trying to tell you or anyone else how to build a cue. However if you have an unused cue that isnt straight logic would tell you that something went wrong somewhere before the end user touched it.

Because a mfg defect occurs doesnt mean that the process is deficient, but it does mean that doodoo happens. I am sure that you have a reject rate, however small, for every step involved in the mfg process.

I do stand by my original statement, which perhaps misunderstood but defends your warranty policy, that if I am delivered a straight and properly built cue that it is not difficult for me to keep it straight.

That doesnt mean that it cant ever happen just that if it does it is due to something happening afterwards and not somethinger that the cuemaker did wrong.

LWW

[Neil Fujiwara]

Thank you for explaining what you meant, it is a lot more clear now. Your input and feedback are appreciated, thank you for taking the time to post on the forum.

[LWW]

No problem. I know that on websites where nobody can see a facial expression or other non verbal parts of communication nor hear voice tone and inflection it is simple to misunderstand something.

I have actually done it once before myself. Well maybe twice. :wink:

LWW

[DEATHTRON]

I sort of what to know who you consider the top 3 cuemakers....would be interesting coming from someone of your caliber.

Zach

[Nick T.]

I sort of what to know who you consider the top 3 cuemakers....would be interesting coming from someone of your caliber.
Zach

Me too! Please share with us Neil.

[Neil Fujiwara]

Nice try, you guys aren't going to catch me that easily. Here is a list of the top 10 in my book though.

Schick
Stroud
Ginacue
Bender
Franklin
Tad
Balabushka
Szamboti
R. Black
T. Wayne

[skor]

These are the most expencive cues but do you really think that they are the best

[Neil Fujiwara]

I think their designs and inlay work are some of the best. Not to mention the collectibility or rarity of the maker.

What would be your list Skor? Actually, I would be interested to know what everyone's list would be. Maybe start another thread about it?

[skor]

I think their designs and inlay work are some of the best. Not to mention the collectibility or rarity of the maker.


I agree with you on that but when the word "best" is in use then playability is what comes to mind.

I can give a list of cues that I would love to have in my collection but I wouldn't know how most of them play since I never had the chance to hold them.

ok so here it goes:
1. Balabushka - just so I could say "it's a Balabushka, Eddie gave it to me"
2. Schick - Amazing artwork
3. Szamboti - Clasic cues great art work
4. TAD - just like the Szamboti
5. Joel Hercek - For keeping the tradition and making a fine full splice cues
6. Samsara - they look great and play great
7. PFD Studios - Paul Drexler make great looking cues
8. Black boar - I would like a one of a king BB just so New kid in the hall couldn't say that he has them all... j/k I just here only good things about them
9. Poal mottey - I really like his cues
10. Josswest - one of the best

this list cause so many injustices to so many great cue makers but I guess that these are my top 10 (of course that I will have to get a 314 shaft for everyone of them )

[Neil Fujiwara]

They all make solid hitting cues, what does "playability" mean to you? Balance? Feel? Vibration? Flex?

[spartan]

1 skip weston
2 paul mottey
3 gus and barry szamboti
4 richard black
5 black boar
6 paul drexler (sambajons cue is beautiful)
7 bill stroud (josswest)
8 vollmer. not very popular but they are beautiful.
9 dale perry
10 southwest
i have shot with all of these cue befor and my favorite one is the southwest.

[Neil Fujiwara]

I only know of a couple of people that have Volmer cues, Thorsten being one of them. It does hit very well and looks great.

[spartan]

i watched him play in nj awhile back. didnt know it was a vollmer. do you know the specs like weight, wrap, shaft diameter? i think he uses a maple shaft but im not sure.

[skor]

I guess it's a combination of everything and because of that maybe playability is a bit of personal preference.
It is realy hard to explain what would make a cue better then another, I belive that you can get used to shoot with any cue and when you do, you'll play great with it. the list I posted is more of a collection cues that have great workmenship put into them, I'm sure that Schon stl-1 with a predator 314 shaft will be just fine for me.

[spartan]

the world jump shot champion is bill meima. he plays out of comet. he used an old meucci cue for twenty years until he retired it. he went to a billiard supply store and bought a $99 brunswick cue. he said it was too heavy. they took the weight bolt out and he said it was still to heavy. he took the cue home took the wrap off drilled holes into the cue to take some weight out and covered it with black tape. he said the holes in the wrap help him grip the cue while holding it loose. he added a 314 to it and he plays great. then you see guys with a skip weston $1500 worth of cue and they cant make 3 balls in a row. whatever makes ya happy.

[Neil Fujiwara]

It was about 19.5 ounces, 12.25mm shaft with a Triangle tip and a leather wrap. He is breaking with one of our BK cues, 20.2 ounces, linen wrap.

[spartan]

i like the way he plays. hes so confident controls his emotions and plays smart patterns. cant find a nicer player than thorsten. anyways has anyone noticed rodney morris wears a fury patch although he still plays with his szamboti? i asked him and he said his fury was getting refinished and this was 6 months ago neil do you know anything about this? thanks :D

[Neil Fujiwara]

I know as much as you do, in fact you know more. The last I heard is that he prefers to play with his Szamboti. I don't know the extent of his agreement with Fury or his involvement anymore.

There are a lot of things I am learning from Thorsten, not all of them pool related. He is a consumate professional and is pretty funny to boot, his English is getting better every day and we are trying to teach him as much slang as possible.

[spartan]

how long has been living in Jacksonville? are you trying to get him out fitted with a 314? lol

[Neil Fujiwara]

He has hit with a couple of my cues, so he knows what they are like. I don't think he will make the switch anytime soon though. I just heard that Ralf Soquet was playing with a 314 recently, it is not official yet but that is what my boss told me when he saw him a couple of weeks ago.

He has been here for a couple of months, maybe 3 or 4. It's really good for me since I am his "hard" workout partner, it is such a privilege and an honor.

It's funny you mentioned Comet Billiards, I was talking to Bill Haley the owner when I read your post. Small world.

[Nick T.]

The subject of what makes a best cue is second only to the subject of best technique and strategy. It deserves its own thread - possibly a sticky.

Since Neil Fujiwara is probably the best informed and the most experienced member of this forum I hope that he will start a best cue thread with his perspective on what makes a great cue.

How about it Neil?

My two cents at this point:
A person or company that makes great butts (playability and/or apperance) may not make good shafts.

A person or company that makes great shafts (playability) may not make good butts.

[Neil Fujiwara]

Whoa whoa whoa!! I don't know if I am the most experienced or informed person on the board, but I will be more than happy to start a thread about this.

It might not be today, but it will be done in the next few days. I will ask Sid to see what he says about it and take it from there.

Thanks for the idea, let's see how far we can run with it!!

[Nick T.]

Thanks Neil - :D

I'm looking forward to it!

[Neil Fujiwara]

Ask and you shall receive: http://seyberts.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=25

Sid stayed up all night, but got it done for you guys!!

[jkregan]

I just had the opportunity to meet Neil and tour the Predator facility.

I met many of the crew that make the Predator products and learned a lot.

I can only say that the visit confirmed what I was already sure of. Predator has a good crew making and standing behind a superior product.