Questions on joints

:? I've been playing pool for a little over a year and a half now and am needing a decent (not incredible cue). I started looking at the vikings and have read quite a few good things about them. I'm looking at the VM35 but I was curious to the way the different joints worked. I don't fully understand the descriptions on the viking web site. If I could get a little feedback on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
Adam

[Jim]

Hi;
That's a good question, and one that could be well-debated. Generally speaking, the more metal in the joint, the stiffer and "harder" the hit will be. Imagine hitting the cueball using a 58" long steel rod the same diameter as a cuestick. You would expect that to feel different than what you feel when you hit a cueball with a one-piece, solid wood house cue in a pool room. What you feel when you use the steel rod is commonly referred to by people as a "stiff" or "hard" hit. The ball would seem to spring off the end of the steel rod, with seemingly very little energy "lost to" or "absorbed by" the rod. What you feel when you hit the cueball with a wood cue is different. I believe most people would describe that feeling as one in which it feels as though the wood cue is "absorbing" some of the energy as the cue strikes the ball. That feel is often referred to as a "soft" hit. Obviously, one could take that one-piece wood cue, remove a 2-foot section of wood in the middle of the stick, and replace it with stainless steel. That would then feel differently than it did before the metal was added. Similarly, if you took that one-piece wood cue and replaced a 3-inch long section in the middle with stainless steel, it would also feel different. Not as stiff as the cue with the 2-foot section of metal in it, but not as soft as the wood cue with no stainless steel in it. Neither a stainless steel joint nor a wood-to-wood is better than the other. They're just different them one another. It has always just come down to personal preference. Many believe the softer hit allows you more control over the shot. Implex (high-impact plastic) joint collars much more simulate the feel of a wood joint than they would steel. For all these same reasons, a stainless steel joint is almost always preferred on a "breaker" or "jump/break" cue. Realizing everyone has their own preference, Viking makes available the joint you feel best suits you.

Hi;
That's a good question, and one that could be well-debated. Generally speaking, the more metal in the joint, the stiffer and "harder" the hit will be. Imagine hitting the cueball using a 58" long steel rod the same diameter as a cuestick. You would expect that to feel different than what you feel when you hit a cueball with a one-piece, solid wood house cue in a pool room. What you feel when you use the steel rod is commonly referred to by people as a "stiff" or "hard" hit. The ball would seem to spring off the end of the steel rod, with seemingly very little energy "lost to" or "absorbed by" the rod. What you feel when you hit the cueball with a wood cue is different. I believe most people would describe that feeling as one in which it feels as though the wood cue is "absorbing" some of the energy as the cue strikes the ball. That feel is often referred to as a "soft" hit. Obviously, one could take that one-piece wood cue, remove a 2-foot section of wood in the middle of the stick, and replace it with stainless steel. That would then feel differently than it did before the metal was added. Similarly, if you took that one-piece wood cue and replaced a 3-inch long section in the middle with stainless steel, it would also feel different. Not as stiff as the cue with the 2-foot section of metal in it, but not as soft as the wood cue with no stainless steel in it. Neither a stainless steel joint nor a wood-to-wood is better than the other. They're just different them one another. It has always just come down to personal preference. Many believe the softer hit allows you more control over the shot. Implex (high-impact plastic) joint collars much more simulate the feel of a wood joint than they would steel. For all these same reasons, a stainless steel joint is almost always preferred on a "breaker" or "jump/break" cue. Realizing everyone has their own preference, Viking makes available the joint you feel best suits you.

if thas the case then how come most top amateur and pros as well I see who use viking or other brand of cues have stainless steel joints ? I do agree with the more feedback of implex.

Hi;
That's a good question, and one that could be well-debated. Generally speaking, the more metal in the joint, the stiffer and "harder" the hit will be. Imagine hitting the cueball using a 58" long steel rod the same diameter as a cuestick. You would expect that to feel different than what you feel when you hit a cueball with a one-piece, solid wood house cue in a pool room. What you feel when you use the steel rod is commonly referred to by people as a "stiff" or "hard" hit. The ball would seem to spring off the end of the steel rod, with seemingly very little energy "lost to" or "absorbed by" the rod. What you feel when you hit the cueball with a wood cue is different. I believe most people would describe that feeling as one in which it feels as though the wood cue is "absorbing" some of the energy as the cue strikes the ball. That feel is often referred to as a "soft" hit. Obviously, one could take that one-piece wood cue, remove a 2-foot section of wood in the middle of the stick, and replace it with stainless steel. That would then feel differently than it did before the metal was added. Similarly, if you took that one-piece wood cue and replaced a 3-inch long section in the middle with stainless steel, it would also feel different. Not as stiff as the cue with the 2-foot section of metal in it, but not as soft as the wood cue with no stainless steel in it. Neither a stainless steel joint nor a wood-to-wood is better than the other. They're just different them one another. It has always just come down to personal preference. Many believe the softer hit allows you more control over the shot. Implex (high-impact plastic) joint collars much more simulate the feel of a wood joint than they would steel. For all these same reasons, a stainless steel joint is almost always preferred on a "breaker" or "jump/break" cue. Realizing everyone has their own preference, Viking makes available the joint you feel best suits you.

if thas the case then how come most top amateur and pros as well I see who use viking or other brand of cues have stainless steel joints ? I do agree with the more feedback of implex.


Hmmmm..... Efren Reyes, Bustamante, Parica, Deuel and a bunch of others are TOP Pros and they use plastic/wood to wood joint. Which top pros are you refering to?

can u compare joint 4 and 5????????????????
if i use joint 4, the shaft is not piloted so would it be enlarge due to the screwing of the male pin?????
joint 5 is piloted in the shaft so will the hit be the same as joint 4???????will the difference be small?

[Jim]

Two things:
1) If you're really interested in what joint is most used by the pros, you might want to watch billiards on ESPN or ESPN2. I believe what you'll see is that by far, the majority of pros are using either a wood-to-wood, or Implex collared joint. As you watch, keep in mind that any pro who is sponsored , even if only in part, by a cue stick manufacturer, is probably obligated to use his sponsor's brand of cue. When that sponsor makes only stainless steel joints, as some do, that pro is probably playing with a stainless steel joint. And it may also well be that that pro would be using a stainless steel joint even if he had no obligations at all. It really does just come down to personal preference. Most of all last year, Corey Deuel used a Viking cue that used a joint #6, collarless joint. It is often assumed among the general public that a stainless steel joint is a better joint, because, as everyone knows, stainless steel costs more than plastic. Besides, stainless steel is shiny and pretty. As anyone who is married can tell you, being pretty and more costly doesn't always make something better.

2). Both joints #4 & #5 use Implex collars. The difference is that joint #4 uses a 3/8 X 10 pin. That means it has a diameter of 3/8 inches, and has 10 threads per inch. Joint #5 uses a 5/16 X 18 thread. It has a diameter of 5/16 inches, and, if it'd have not been a quick-release pin and had threads all the way to the top, it would have 18 threads per inch. Joint #4 screws into a shaft with nothing but wood threads to receive the pin. Some people feel that eliminating the brass insert in the shaft, it makes for a softer hit. The reason a 5/16 X 18 pin isn't used when the pin screws directly into wood threads, is that there would have to be 18 wood threads per inch in the shaft, instead of just 10, as is needed to accomodate a 3/8 X 10 pin. If we were to put 18 threads per inch directly into the wood of the shaft, the wood ridges of the thread would be thin and narrow, and would make the threads more susceptible to having pieces of the wood threads break off or chip. By having only 10 threads per inch, each wooden thread is thicker and holds-up better over time. I believe one of your questions asked if those wood threads eventually wear from the friction of the screw going in and out. I don't think so. I used to wonder myself, but apparently, hard rock maple is so hard (they make bowling alleys out of maple and you can't even drive a nail into a piece of bowling alley...I've tried), that even after years of use, that pin is not slowly sanding away at the ridges. It simply does not seem to wear-away, and loosen-up.
Keep in mind as we talk about "soft" and "hard" hits, there are other factors besides the joint material. The design and material used in ferrules, the shaft diameter, and the shaft taper, are also big factors. And of course, selecting a "soft" tip, or "hard" tip makes a big difference. Hopefully this has helped a bit.

[Jim]

P.S.: Just noticed an article this morning in the July issue of Billiards Digest that touches on some of this. It's Mike Segal's monthly column on Page 18. The first question a reader asks is about ivory ferrules, but at the bottom of Mike's response to that question, he says a few things about stainless steel joints, and "harder or softer" hits. Not knowing much about copyrights, I don't want to be quoting anything said in the article, but suggest you look at it if you'd like more imput on the matter. Their website is www.billiardsdigest.com