which cue to throw a predator on?

[thumpin347]

well...as you guys may know...i play with an L-E13, or will be, as it should be here thursday. i was going to shaft it with a 314, but tonight i just bought another cue. this one is a Joss P21, that i bought for 130 bux brand spanking new. its very slick looking as well. anyway, as the title says...i dunno which to put a shaft on.

i know there are alot of lucasi haters...should i make the investment towards the Joss, or to the Lucasi? i was thinking i could put a 314 on the Joss for now, and throw on a Z shaft later on the Lucasi...decisions decisions...up next for purchase...a custom F-77? :wink:

anyway, post up your opinions...i'm in between right now, so you guys are going to be making this decision for me basically

[ThePoolHustler]

I have a 314 on a Lucasi butt. It's a good combination. It doesn't matter what butt you put the 314 on. The performance will be the same. Ask Neil Fujiwara. :wink: :wink:

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[ThePoolHustler]

It's almost 10pm. It's time for the "Ask Neil" show.

I gotta stay up for this one. :wink: :wink:

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[bobmcq11]

I wouldn't put the 314 on one and Z on the other, do both 314's or both Z's. I have both right now, and they are near impossible to switch back and forth and still be consistant with.

[sanj]

I agree ,the Z shaft plays very differently from the 314.
Stick with one type of shaft.

[skor]

get one 314 shaft for the joss, it's cheaper then for the Lucasi because of the joint and artwork on the ring and if you'll like it then get another one for the lucasi

[spartan]

joss is a way better cue than the lucasi. id go with the joss.

[DZ314]

joss is a way better cue than the lucasi. id go with the joss.

But a broomhandle, now that is what you want to put that 314 on buddy! :lol:

[ThePoolHustler]

joss is a way better cue than the lucasi. id go with the joss.

But a broomhandle, now that is what you want to put that 314 on buddy! :lol:

Yeah...I am going to try doing this at some point. lmao

It will be a nice aftermarket part for my Nimbus 2000 Flying Cue. lmfao

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[sanj]

Use the Joss ; it is a much better cue than the Lucasi.

[ThePoolHustler]

Use the Joss ; it is a much better cue than the Lucasi.

I am just curious. I am being serious here. What makes the Joss a better cue than the Lucasi? Is it the materials used in each...not counting the inlays, veneers, etc because these are just for looks/appearance? What woods are used in each of these cues...in the core of the butt and the core of the shafts? I know that most shafts are made from maple. Both of these cues are production cues, but do any of us know the process? Have any of us visited the factories where each of these cues are made so that we can do a comparative analysis?

I am just curious to know these answers. I don't think any of us know ALL the answers. Do we?

I think it is all a matter of opinion. You like Joss. I like Lucasi. I have used both. The Joss cues are nice. The Lucasi cues are nice too. Any cue will perform well with a 314...doesn't matter which butt you use. Ask Neil Fujiwara.

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[sanj]

If both cues have the same shaft, for example a 314, then the only difference is the balance,the type of joint and how solid the butt is .
I think that Joss cues have a better balance than a Lucasi and that the feedback from the cue is better.
If you look at the original shafts that come with the cues, then I think that the shaft wood on the joss is better and the shaft plays better.

[spartan]

erik give it rest with the $5 of 5k cue itll play the same youve said that like 20 times. joss cues are made in maryland by dan janes. he has been making cues for 30 years. players like ralf souquet and mike sigel shoot with a joss cue. i think that is better than a overseas mass product. IMO

[sanj]

konur is right. The Joss is a much better cue.

[skor]

I agree that it does not matter, every butt will play the same with a 314 shaft, but I do belive that Joss is better constructed and probably will feel a bit more solid (feel - but still willp lay the same) this construction will probably make the cue last for a longer period of time.

There is a name behinde Joss cues - Dan Janes, this is a name I could trust, behind Lucasi hides a big corporation that I don't know, if you want to get a cheap cue in the range of $100 - $150 then lucasi is a good choice if you are going to buy a second or a third cue then invest a little at something extra, that extra is not always comes in playability but sometimes in the art work or the heart and soul invested in making the cue

[audiopro]

Have any of us visited the factories where each of these cues are made so that we can do a comparative analysis?


Have you ever been to a Honda factory to see them assemble the cars? Also, have you been to a Yugo factory when they were around to see them build the cars?

Didn't think so... But I am sure you know which company made a better, more reliable car...

Erik, one need not visit a factory and watch the process, to know what the end result is. We can see the end result for ourselves, and over time we can see how well things hold up, and perform...

In the above case, Honda has for years been ranked one of the most reliable cars on the market. Umm, I dont think Yugo has ever seen the list.. :)

Kinda like comparing an IBM ThinkPad to a Dell Laptop. The IBM's are superior in their reliability. I have worked with IBM for 10 years, and with Dell for about 5. Been business partners with both. I have never been to their factory and watched the laptops made. But I know which one I will choose when I want something reliable. How do I know which is more reliable when I have not seen them built first hand? Because I have seen them used day in day out first hand...

[ThePoolHustler]

If both cues have the same shaft, for example a 314, then the only difference is the balance,the type of joint and how solid the butt is .
I think that Joss cues have a better balance than a Lucasi and that the feedback from the cue is better.
If you look at the original shafts that come with the cues, then I think that the shaft wood on the joss is better and the shaft plays better.

Balance is a matter of preference though. All cues have varying balance points. I'm not saying Joss are bad cues. I have used a few. I like them. I have also used Lucasi. I have one. I like it. It's all a matter of preference.

How do you know the shaft wood on the Joss is better than the wood on the Lucasi? I am just curious. Both shafts are probably made from maple. Have you visited both factories to do a comparative analysis?

As of right now, this is still a matter of opinion.

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[ThePoolHustler]

erik give it rest with the $5 of 5k cue itll play the same youve said that like 20 times. joss cues are made in maryland by dan janes. he has been making cues for 30 years. players like ralf souquet and mike sigel shoot with a joss cue. i think that is better than a overseas mass product. IMO

Once again, this is your opinion. Some people might think differently. This is just my opinion.

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[ThePoolHustler]

konur is right. The Joss is a much better cue.

personal opinion

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[sanj]

take both original shafts and look at them closely. The finish is better on the joss. feel the joints between the ferrule and shaft, aswell as between the shaft and joint.
Both shafts hit fairly stiff, the tapers are slightly different.
The Joss simply plays better.

[DZ314]

Yeah well my Dr. Seuss special edition Green Eggs n' Ham cue is the best so take your Joss, Lucasi, Schon, Predator, Fury, McDermott, and Vikings and stuff 'em! :lol:

[ThePoolHustler]

I agree that it does not matter, every butt will play the same with a 314 shaft, but I do belive that Joss is better constructed and probably will feel a bit more solid (feel - but still willp lay the same) this construction will probably make the cue last for a longer period of time.

There is a name behinde Joss cues - Dan Janes, this is a name I could trust, behind Lucasi hides a big corporation that I don't know, if you want to get a cheap cue in the range of $100 - $150 then lucasi is a good choice if you are going to buy a second or a third cue then invest a little at something extra, that extra is not always comes in playability but sometimes in the art work or the heart and soul invested in making the cue

I agree with some of this. However, can you tell me what Joss cues are constructed of...not including the inlays, veneers, etc...just the core of the butt and the core of the shaft? Also, can you tell me what Lucasi cues are constructed of...core of butt and core of shaft only? I am just curious.

There are a lot of great products that all of us buy every day that are made by big corporations. I don't see all of us buying custom made products on a daily basis. Because a product is made by a big corporation on a production line doesn't mean that it is inferior. Most cars are made on production lines by big corporations. I bet we all drive them. Wait...are some of you driving custom cars made by custom car builders? If not, why not?

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[ThePoolHustler]

take both original shafts and look at them closely. The finish is better on the joss. feel the joints between the ferrule and shaft, aswell as between the shaft and joint.
Both shafts hit fairly stiff, the tapers are slightly different.
The Joss simply plays better.

not when you put a 314 on each...they will play the same...

[spartan]

lucasi is a cheap mass product. they dont make good cues. i have shot with one the hit isnt good the feel isnt good. i shot with a joss for years. joss cues are good cues. they have american craftmanship along with years of solid reputation. joss is a family business. you know what you are getting and who you are getting it from. lucasi cues. ehh made in a factory with low quality products. the choice is simple joss is the way to go.

[ThePoolHustler]

Have any of us visited the factories where each of these cues are made so that we can do a comparative analysis?


Have you ever been to a Honda factory to see them assemble the cars? Also, have you been to a Yugo factory when they were around to see them build the cars?

Didn't think so... But I am sure you know which company made a better, more reliable car...

Erik, one need not visit a factory and watch the process, to know what the end result is. We can see the end result for ourselves, and over time we can see how well things hold up, and perform...

In the above case, Honda has for years been ranked one of the most reliable cars on the market. Umm, I dont think Yugo has ever seen the list.. :)

Kinda like comparing an IBM ThinkPad to a Dell Laptop. The IBM's are superior in their reliability. I have worked with IBM for 10 years, and with Dell for about 5. Been business partners with both. I have never been to their factory and watched the laptops made. But I know which one I will choose when I want something reliable. How do I know which is more reliable when I have not seen them built first hand? Because I have seen them used day in day out first hand...

And once again, this is your personal opinion. Some people might have the oppostive opinion based on using an IBM ThinkPad and a Dell Laptop. Everyone's experiences are different.

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[sanj]

I own a custom car made by a custom car maker.
I own a Caterham 7 and I use it for track racing.
I also own a custom cue (or 2) which I use for playing pool.
I still do not understand your point.

[ThePoolHustler]

lucasi is a cheap mass product. they dont make good cues. i have shot with one the hit isnt good the feel isnt good. i shot with a joss for years. joss cues are good cues. they have american craftmanship along with years of solid reputation. joss is a family business. you know what you are getting and who you are getting it from. lucasi cues. ehh made in a factory with low quality products. the choice is simple joss is the way to go.

Give me something other than your personal opinion. Everyone's experiences are different. Some people might not think the same as you.

There are lots of big family run corporations that make mass produced products in a factory with lots of other products and we buy these products every day without even thinking.

How do you know Lucasi cues are made in a factory with low quality products? Have you been there?

I just want to see something other than personal opinions here. If you like Joss, it doesn't mean that I will like a Joss. Because you simply say Joss is better than Lucasi, doesn't mean that I will believe you. Provide me with some type of proof.

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[audiopro]

Erik, you seem to confuse opinion and facts that we base our decisions on.

It is not my opinion that 16 of every 50 Dell laptops I have in my asset database, have had a hardware problem within 6 months of field deployment. Where as the IBM has had 3 of every 50 incur a hardware failure within 6 months of deployment. These are facts my friend. These facts are what we use to base our opinions on what products are better. And those above facts should make it clear which laptops have historically been more reliable...

Please try to understand the above. Yes it is my opinion that the IBM's are better. But my opinion has facts that support it.

[skor]

When I say construction I do not reffer to materials but rather how where they treated, cut, put together, glued and so on.
I beleive a cue company like joss are putting more of them self in the cue I also belive that the constuct their cues with better care and knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, if you were a new player looking for your first cue, I would probably tell you to get a Lucasi with a 314 shaft but if you've been a round and you're looking for something extra then there is nothing for you to look in the "mass production cues" department

[ThePoolHustler]

I own a custom car made by a custom car maker.
I own a Caterham 7 and I use it for track racing.
I also own a custom cue (or 2) which I use for playing pool.
I still do not understand your point.

Nevermind, I am not going to try to explain it again.

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[audiopro]

How do you know Lucasi cues are made in a factory with low quality products? Have you been there?


Once again let me say it... You do not have to go to a factory to watch something made to see how it performs and lasts. Once you have been around any industry for a while, you see how well products hold up. Maybe you have not been around this industry long enough to have learned that. But maybe you have in some other field? I mean, there has to be something you know of, that based on your experience, has performed better than a competitor?!?!?! And based on those performance experiences, you would use their product again!?!? Shaving cream, razors, dish soap, tires, bug repellant, brooms?!?!?! Come on man!!

[ThePoolHustler]

When I say construction I do not reffer to materials but rather how where they treated, cut, put together, glued and so on.
I beleive a cue company like joss are putting more of them self in the cue I also belive that the constuct their cues with better care and knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, if you were a new player looking for your first cue, I would probably tell you to get a Lucasi with a 314 shaft but if you've been a round and you're looking for something extra then there is nothing for you to look in the "mass production cues" department

Again, this is your belief as you stated. How do you know what your saying is true? Are you 100% certain of what you are saying? Have you visited the Joss factory and the Lucasi factory and compared their processes? Do you personally know Dan Janes or the owners of the company making the Lucasi cues? Just curious.

How come a lot of the pros are using production made cues and not custom made cues? Are they letting money dictate what they play with...endorsements? If so, that is pretty sad. Why would I play with a Cuetec instead of a better quality cue if it meant so much to my game? This just doesn't make any sense to me.

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[audiopro]

Are they letting money dictate what they play with...endorsements? If so, that is pretty sad.

YES!!! Exactly!!! Of course money dictates what they use!! They gotta get paid!!

[ThePoolHustler]

How do you know Lucasi cues are made in a factory with low quality products? Have you been there?


Once again let me say it... You do not have to go to a factory to watch something made to see how it performs and lasts. Once you have been around any industry for a while, you see how well products hold up. Maybe you have not been around this industry long enough to have learned that. But maybe you have in some other field? I mean, there has to be something you know of, that based on your experience, has performed better than a competitor?!?!?! And based on those performance experiences, you would use their product again!?!? Shaving cream, razors, dish soap, tires, bug repellant, brooms?!?!?! Come on man!!

I think visiting the factories would play an important role in the decision-making process. This is my opinion. You have your opinion. There are lots of products that perform better than a competitors products. Sometimes the better product is the cheapest product. Sometimes it is the one with the lesser quality or construction. Most televisions are copies of Sony televisions. What brand of televisions do you guys own? Do all of you own Sony televisions? If not, why not? They are one of the best. Most others are copies. It makes the R & D process cheaper and easier to simply buy a competitor's television, strip it down, and then buy the same parts to construct your own. A lot of cuemakers do this to make cues. They buy cues, tear them apart, figure out how they are constructed, and then make a similar product. This happens all the time in every industry.

One day I could buy a Sony TV. It could be great. My experience could be great. Next time I need a TV, I go buy another Sony. It sucks. I no longer like Sony TV's. Now I buy one of the cheaper ones...Magnavox...copy of sony. It's great. I like it. My experience is great. It was cheaper. It was less quality and the construction not quite as good, but the picture is just as good, if not better, than the Sony. Maybe Magnavox improved the production process of their television sets to make them better. Maybe Sony is having problems with their production process. These things can vary on a daily basis. A product can be good one day, but not the next. I don't always buy the exact same products. I try different ones. I buy the ones I think are good at the time I purchase them. Does this mean that they will remain the best. No way!!!!

Come on now man!!!!

[skor]

I could visit Joss, I know where it is, I can't visit Lucasi because no one knows where it's made and by who, all I know is that they are made to the request of a company called Cue & Case.

There not a lot of custom cue makers that give sponsorship to players because they are not making enough to support it, I'm not talking about semi-custom cue makers like Joss that has a production line and a custom line, I'm talking about cue makers that make up to a 100 cues a year.
But mass production cue makers like Lucasi, Cue-tec and so on give out money to players to endorse thie product so they would sell even more cues.

[ThePoolHustler]

Are they letting money dictate what they play with...endorsements? If so, that is pretty sad.

YES!!! Exactly!!! Of course money dictates what they use!! They gotta get paid!!

And unfortunately, that is pretty sad. So why can't we just play with cheap Cuetec cues then? The pros are doing it and winning. Why can't we do it and win? We can make the same changes to our cues that they are making to theirs. If the cue really mattered, I would think they would use what works best for them...not what they are being paid to use.

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[audiopro]

So Erik... There is not 1 single product you buy on a repeat basis because of your past good experience with it? Wow, that is absolutely amazing.. Kinda hard to believe... Amazing though...

[skor]

Are they letting money dictate what they play with...endorsements? If so, that is pretty sad.

YES!!! Exactly!!! Of course money dictates what they use!! They gotta get paid!!

And unfortunately, that is pretty sad. So why can't we just play with cheap Cuetec cues then? The pros are doing it and winning. Why can't we do it and win? We can make the same changes to our cues that they are making to theirs. If the cue really mattered, I would think they would use what works best for them...not what they are being paid to use.

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because you're paying for your cue and they don't, they'll get a new cue next week or tomorrow if they want one they'll get lots of shafts, so who cares if they warp, but when you're paying for it then you want it to last.

Everyone knows that German cars are better constracted then korean cars, some people are still buying Korean cars because it fits their budget
but they rather drive a German car.
I would love to play pool with a 5k samsara but for now my 7 years old Predator will do fine :wink:

[ThePoolHustler]

I could visit Joss, I know where it is, I can't visit Lucasi because no one knows where it's made and by who, all I know is that they are made to the request of a company called Cue & Case.

There not a lot of custom cue makers that give sponsorship to players because they are not making enough to support it, I'm not talking about semi-custom cue makers like Joss that has a production line and a custom line, I'm talking about cue makers that make up to a 100 cues a year.
But mass production cue makers like Lucasi, Cue-tec and so on give out money to players to endorse thie product so they would sell even more cues.

Call Cue & Case and ask them where the Lucasi factory is located. I bet they would know, which means someone does know where they are made and by whom.

Joss makes production line cues. They also make custom cues on another line, or maybe even the same line. Both cues are made on a production line of some sort. Are these really custom cues. I doubt it. They just makes changes to the lines to change the colors, inlays, veneers, etc. Then they go back to making the other cues with other colors, inlays, veneers, etc. This is not uncommon with production lines. I worked in a factory at one time. The orders dictate what you produce. One day it could be one product, the next day it could be another. Joss is a mass production cue maker just like Lucasi, Cuetec, Viking, etc. Joss is here in the U.S. Lucasi is in China I believe. So what. We have auto plants, and other plants, in other countries. Other countries have plants here. Who cares where the product is made.

Would you play with a Lucasi or a Cuetec if you were a professional player and offered lots of money? Or would you stick to the cue you like and prefer to play with? If you would play with a Cuetec or Lucasi, why would you, other than for the money?

[audiopro]

Would you play with a Lucasi or a Cuetec if you were a professional player and offered lots of money? Or would you stick to the cue you like and prefer to play with? If you would play with a Cuetec or Lucasi, why would you, other than for the money?

I'd play with a golf club if they paid me enough. :)

[ThePoolHustler]

So Erik... There is not 1 single product you buy on a repeat basis because of your past good experience with it? Wow, that is absolutely amazing.. Kinda hard to believe... Amazing though...

*thinking*

I am not sure. There might be a few products that I use repeatedly, but they aren't always the best or the highest-quality. Sometimes I buy things based on price. This doesn't mean the product is inferior.

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[ThePoolHustler]

Would you play with a Lucasi or a Cuetec if you were a professional player and offered lots of money? Or would you stick to the cue you like and prefer to play with? If you would play with a Cuetec or Lucasi, why would you, other than for the money?

I'd play with a golf club if they paid me enough. :)

Exactly! So why does the cue matter then? It obviously doesn't mean much. This is my point.

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[spartan]

erik you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again with every post "find me proof" "that is your opinion" "give me facts" it is the opinion here that lucasi cues are a POS. im sorry if you dont accept that. we dont need proof. we know they are bad. can you please stop with your controversial posts and your refusal to accept the fact that we dont agree with you? im sorry if i sound harsh but you keep repeating yourself.

[audiopro]

erik you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again with every post "find me proof" "that is your opinion" "give me facts" it is the opinion here that lucasi cues are a POS. im sorry if you dont accept that. we dont need proof. we know they are bad. can you please stop with your controversial posts and your refusal to accept the fact that we dont agree with you? im sorry if i sound harsh but you keep repeating yourself.

werd...

[ThePoolHustler]

erik you keep repeating yourself over and over and over again with every post "find me proof" "that is your opinion" "give me facts" it is the opinion here that lucasi cues are a POS. im sorry if you dont accept that. we dont need proof. we know they are bad. can you please stop with your controversial posts and your refusal to accept the fact that we dont agree with you? im sorry if i sound harsh but you keep repeating yourself.

...and all of you keep repeating yourselves with your controversial posts, which is why I make my controversial posts.

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with your opinions. Give me proof. I have not seen any proof of anything yet. No one has provided me with anything. It's a matter of opinion that Lucasi cues, and others, are POS's.

And you're right, I am well-educated so I will not accept what you are saying as fact and truth. I want proof that what you are saying is factual.

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[skor]

Erick, based on what you know, if I was to offer you a free cue and you could choose any joss cue or any lucasi cue what will it be :?:

The cue that you'll choose will have to serve you for the next 5 years.
you can't sell it, so don't think about taking a high end joss and sell it :wink:

Please give us your true choice and explain your choice

[audiopro]

Erick, based on what you know, if I was to offer you a free cue and you could choose any joss cue or any lucasi cue what will it be :?:

The cue that you'll choose will have to serve you for the next 5 years.
you can't sell it, so don't think about taking a high end joss and sell it :wink:

Please give us your true choice and explain your choice

Skor, he will first need to visit both factory's and do an analysis.. ;)

[spartan]

Erick, based on what you know, if I was to offer you a free cue and you could choose any joss cue or any lucasi cue what will it be :?:

The cue that you'll choose will have to serve you for the next 5 years.
you can't sell it, so don't think about taking a high end joss and sell it :wink:

Please give us your true choice and explain your choice

Skor, he will first need to visit both factory's and do an analysis.. ;) lmao

[thumpin347]

i see tons of great points between lucasi and joss.

here is my input. generally, i think people tend to buy viking, mcdermott, and joss siimply because they are an American company. now, this is not saying that americans put out a superior product. it is simply because we can track down the company for any issues with our products, and more easily replaceable in the least amount of turnover time. they have faced that we can see, so you know who to talk to if you ever had a problem

now, lucasi, and other overseas companies. basically, from what i know and heard of, are divisions of bigger companies. meaning, taking it up with a parent company, you will get some strange answers...like "what are you talking about? oh, you're calling about one of those cues that we make somewhere...well i dunno what to tell you." leaving you with an empty feeling looking for the right place to call and the right person to speak with.

now, moving onto the pros. what they play with MAY appear to be a production cue, but don't let that fool you. i guarantee you that what is under the familiar designs of these cues, are of the highest quality materials, each player has specified for their built cue. they are simply "one-offs"

how do i know this? look at the PGA Tour. Tiger Woods, when he first signed with Titleist, continued to play with his Mizuno MP-14's from his college days. they were simply rechromed, and stamped with the Titleist logo. his shafts are custom spun to a flex only he plays with. Titleist put out the 970MBs which were a limited run of irons that took design cues off of Tiger's clubs, and were supposed to be mass produced, until Mizuno confronted Titleist about the irons being essentially rips of their MP-14s. hence why they decided to serialize them and sell them as very limited production irons. Tiger then moved to Nike, and at the time had a set of one off titleist irons designed specifically for him. again, rechromed with a nike swoosh when he made the move. his driver? played with a titleist 975D, and Nike produced a one off for him, by simply taking apart his titleist driver and using essentially the same design cues, put Nike paint and sole on it and marketed their new clubs as "what tiger plays" obviously, the line of clubs crash and burned. same goes for all pros, each set is custom tailored to their specs, shaft flex, loft, lie angles, swingweight, etc.

do you guys honestly think that Allison Fisher will play her JUNK cuetec production signature cue in a career that feeds herself and family? i HIGHLY doubt it.

[ThePoolHustler]

Erick, based on what you know, if I was to offer you a free cue and you could choose any joss cue or any lucasi cue what will it be :?:

The cue that you'll choose will have to serve you for the next 5 years.
you can't sell it, so don't think about taking a high end joss and sell it :wink:

Please give us your true choice and explain your choice

First of all, I don't think any of you understand what I am trying to do here. I am asking why Joss is better than Lucasi. I don't want opinions. I want facts. I stated that. I want to truly know what makes Joss better than Lucasi. I don't think any of you really know. No one has given me any facts, just opinions. You guys give all these opinions, but you can never explain yourselves with facts. It is always, "I believe...It's my opinion that...etc." I am not trying to be argumentative. I am trying to dig out the truth...the facts...the data. I truly want to know the factual answers and not the beliefs or opinions.

Secondly, I never said that I liked Lucasi more than Joss or vice versa. I don't recall that anyway.

I will keep my Lucasi with the 314 shaft for the next 5 years, but if you would like to send me a free Joss to try...go for it. I will evaluate them both. I will even strip down both cues and have them evaluated by experts to get the facts that I am looking for. Maybe the Joss will come out on top. Maybe the Lucasi will. I don't really know. At least we will get our answers.

I really don't know how I can be right or wrong here. I am simply asking for answers. I haven't given any. I am waiting for the facts. I think you guys get confused sometimes.

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[spartan]

well you arent gona get facts here so you might as well stop repeating yourself OVER.. and OVER... and OVER.

[DZ314]

Better service and support? Quicker turn around time on repairs? :?

[ThePoolHustler]

i see tons of great points between lucasi and joss.

here is my input. generally, i think people tend to buy viking, mcdermott, and joss siimply because they are an American company. now, this is not saying that americans put out a superior product. it is simply because we can track down the company for any issues with our products, and more easily replaceable in the least amount of turnover time. they have faced that we can see, so you know who to talk to if you ever had a problem

now, lucasi, and other overseas companies. basically, from what i know and heard of, are divisions of bigger companies. meaning, taking it up with a parent company, you will get some strange answers...like "what are you talking about? oh, you're calling about one of those cues that we make somewhere...well i dunno what to tell you." leaving you with an empty feeling looking for the right place to call and the right person to speak with.

now, moving onto the pros. what they play with MAY appear to be a production cue, but don't let that fool you. i guarantee you that what is under the familiar designs of these cues, are of the highest quality materials, each player has specified for their built cue. they are simply "one-offs"

how do i know this? look at the PGA Tour. Tiger Woods, when he first signed with Titleist, continued to play with his Mizuno MP-14's from his college days. they were simply rechromed, and stamped with the Titleist logo. his shafts are custom spun to a flex only he plays with. Titleist put out the 970MBs which were a limited run of irons that took design cues off of Tiger's clubs, and were supposed to be mass produced, until Mizuno confronted Titleist about the irons being essentially rips of their MP-14s. hence why they decided to serialize them and sell them as very limited production irons. Tiger then moved to Nike, and at the time had a set of one off titleist irons designed specifically for him. again, rechromed with a nike swoosh when he made the move. his driver? played with a titleist 975D, and Nike produced a one off for him, by simply taking apart his titleist driver and using essentially the same design cues, put Nike paint and sole on it and marketed their new clubs as "what tiger plays" obviously, the line of clubs crash and burned. same goes for all pros, each set is custom tailored to their specs, shaft flex, loft, lie angles, swingweight, etc.

do you guys honestly think that Allison Fisher will play her JUNK cuetec production signature cue in a career that feeds herself and family? i HIGHLY doubt it.

EXACTLY

What one plays with is his/her own personal preference. We have no idea what is really underneath the name, do we? Is it a Schon, or isn't it? Is it a Viking, or isn't it? Is it a Predator, or isn't it? Is it a Cuetec, or isn't it? Is it a Lucasi, or isn't it? Is it a Meucci, or isn't it? We have no idea. Thumpin made some great points here.

What really makes one cue better than another? This is the question that I am posing. Do we even know? Has anyone here actually seriously looked at everything, analyzed everything, etc? I haven't. This is why I am posing the questions.

I am not sure why people are getting so upset over this. Is it because no one has the true answers? Maybe so. That is why we keep stating our opinions and beliefs.

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[skor]

well I'm not asking for facts, I'm asking which cue will you pick :?:

[Deb]

I honestly think..if we had the actual truth..we all would have the exact same cue.

So who wants to give out the truth, when they can continue to make cues of sorts...

Now that's someting for you to ponder over ;)

[audiopro]

I gave Erik facts. But since he does not like them, he titles them invalid and words around them to try and make himself believe they actually were invalid.

[ThePoolHustler]

well you arent gona get facts here so you might as well stop repeating yourself OVER.. and OVER... and OVER.

I am not the only one repeating myself over and over. We could get the facts if we wanted to. As serious poolplayers, I think we should all be attempting to get the facts. Don't we all want to know them? I bet a lot of the pros know the answers.

I know that this place does a lot of testing:

http://www.platinumbilliards.com/

Maybe the results should speak for themselves.

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[ThePoolHustler]

well I'm not asking for facts, I'm asking which cue will you pick :?:

Skor,

I gave you my answer. Did you actually read my post?

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[ThePoolHustler]

I gave Erik facts. But since he does not like them, he titles them invalid and words around them to try and make himself believe they actually were invalid.

What FACTS did you give me audio? You told me that 2 people you know have defective Lucasi cues. Okay, that is a fact. Now...how many Lucasi cues were/have been produced? Of those cues, how many have been defective?

The following is just an example:

Let's say that Lucasi produced 100 cues and 2 were defective. This means that .02% of all cues made were defective. This is a great number, not a bad number. Let's say Joss produced 100 cues and 5 were defective. This is .05%. This is still a great number, even though they produced more defective cues. However, the fact is Joss produced more defective cues. Does this make Joss cues inferior. No. Does it make Lucasi cues superior. No. In order to do a proper analysis, you have to analyze the entire picture and not just a small sample in your area. Until this is done, you won't really know the truth.

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[skor]

Yeah I did but taking them both and striping them down was not an option so is your cue, how hard could it be to pick one cue (a cue that you'll have to use for the next 5 years) out of two options.

If I was to give you a free car and you can choose between a BMW or a Hyundai what will it be :?:

come on, easy questions

[ThePoolHustler]

I honestly think..if we had the actual truth..we all would have the exact same cue.

So who wants to give out the truth, when they can continue to make cues of sorts...

Now that's someting for you to ponder over ;)

Deb,

You are probably correct. This is why we probably will never get the truth. The companies want us to think that their products are better vs their competitors products. This is why "product hype" exists. This is why advertising and commercials exist. We buy into this stuff every day.

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[spartan]

on the other forum he said hed rather have a ford than a mercedes so hell proly pick hyundai. i dont understand it either.

[DZ314]

It all comes down to personal preference, but on some things opinions are more widely shared on one side of a choice than others. Sure, there will always be those few who might pick the Hyundai but the fact is that a lot more are going to take the BWM so there is as close of a factual answer as you will get.

[audiopro]

Let's say that Lucasi produced 100 cues and 2 were defective. This means that .02% of all cues made were defective. This is a great number, not a bad number. Let's say Joss produced 100 cues and 5 were defective. This is .05%. This is still a great number, even though they produced more defective cues. However, the fact is Joss produced more defective cues. Does this make Joss cues inferior. No. Does it make Lucasi cues superior. No. In order to do a proper analysis, you have to analyze the entire picture and not just a small sample in your area. Until this is done, you won't really know the truth.

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Actually that is 2% and 5% respectively...

And as conveyed before, we use the facts and experiences we have to make decisions.. And facts are, for any area, that is a lot of bad Lucasi's given how few there are...

[ThePoolHustler]

Yeah I did but taking them both and striping them down was not an option so is your cue, how hard could it be to pick one cue (a cue that you'll have to use for the next 5 years) out of two options.

If I was to give you a free car and you can choose between a BMW or a Hyundai what will it be :?:

come on, easy questions

Skor,

I stated that I would stick with my Lucasi and the 314 shaft I have for the next 5 years. I don't even want a free cue. I already have a Lucasi. It isn't going to make a difference in my game/performance if I switch. Therefore, what is the point?

As for the cars, I would want to test drive them first. I would want to look them over. Based on my findings, I would give you my answer. Until then, I can't do that.

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[ThePoolHustler]

Let's say that Lucasi produced 100 cues and 2 were defective. This means that .02% of all cues made were defective. This is a great number, not a bad number. Let's say Joss produced 100 cues and 5 were defective. This is .05%. This is still a great number, even though they produced more defective cues. However, the fact is Joss produced more defective cues. Does this make Joss cues inferior. No. Does it make Lucasi cues superior. No. In order to do a proper analysis, you have to analyze the entire picture and not just a small sample in your area. Until this is done, you won't really know the truth.

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Actually that is 2% and 5% respectively...

And as conveyed before, we use the facts and experiences we have to make decisions.. And facts are, for any area, that is a lot of bad Lucasi's given how few there are...

You are correct, my mistake.

.02 = 2%
.05 = 5%

I forgot to remove the decimals. These are still good numbers. All of these posts are making me lose my mind. lol

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[audiopro]

You are correct, my mistake.

.02 = 2%
.05 = 5%

I forgot to remove the decimals. These are still good numbers. All of these posts are making me lose my mind. lol

Yeah, no doubt.. 8O

Erik, at the least, you definitely get people posting on the board... ;)

[ThePoolHustler]

It all comes down to personal preference, but on some things opinions are more widely shared on one side of a choice than others. Sure, there will always be those few who might pick the Hyundai but the fact is that a lot more are going to take the BWM so there is as close of a factual answer as you will get.

Contact the car manufacturers to find out what their sales have been for particular models. That would give you a somewhat factual answer. You would have to do something like Coke and Pepsi used to do...have a taste test...drive test...something...lol

Personally, I wouldn't just choose a BMW over a Hyundai without doing a little research...test driving them...etc.

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[ThePoolHustler]

You are correct, my mistake.

.02 = 2%
.05 = 5%

I forgot to remove the decimals. These are still good numbers. All of these posts are making me lose my mind. lol

Yeah, no doubt.. 8O

Erik, at the least, you definitely get people posting on the board... ;)

Yes, that is why I do this. I like to get you guys going...thinking...etc. I don't do it to argue.

Fury can give you my answer to the Joss vs Lucasi question. He knows what my real answer is. He knows which one I would prefer. I have played pool with both cues.

Just because I state things on here doesn't mean that is what I honestly think or what I would honestly do. I am just trying to get you guys to think about things a little more. That is all.

Someday you guys will understand me and not take everything I say to heart. lmao

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[DZ314]

It all comes down to personal preference, but on some things opinions are more widely shared on one side of a choice than others. Sure, there will always be those few who might pick the Hyundai but the fact is that a lot more are going to take the BWM so there is as close of a factual answer as you will get.

Contact the car manufacturers to find out what their sales have been for particular models. That would give you a somewhat factual answer. You would have to do something like Coke and Pepsi used to do...have a taste test...drive test...something...lol

Personally, I wouldn't just choose a BMW over a Hyundai without doing a little research...test driving them...etc.

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You just like stirring the pot. :lol:

[skor]

I gave Erik facts. But since he does not like them, he titles them invalid and words around them to try and make himself believe they actually were invalid.

What FACTS did you give me audio? You told me that 2 people you know have defective Lucasi cues. Okay, that is a fact. Now...how many Lucasi cues were/have been produced? Of those cues, how many have been defective?

The following is just an example:

Let's say that Lucasi produced 100 cues and 2 were defective. This means that .02% of all cues made were defective. This is a great number, not a bad number. Let's say Joss produced 100 cues and 5 were defective. This is .05%. This is still a great number, even though they produced more defective cues. However, the fact is Joss produced more defective cues. Does this make Joss cues inferior. No. Does it make Lucasi cues superior. No. In order to do a proper analysis, you have to analyze the entire picture and not just a small sample in your area. Until this is done, you won't really know the truth.

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2 out of 100 is 2% not .02%
5 out of 100 is 5% not .05%

how do you count defective products, do you count those that reach the market and were returned or do you count the defctive products that were found on the production line as well.

Lucasi probably has more defective cues then joss because they make more cues so the probability of making more defective cues is higher so I think you should look at a percentage of an anual production.
But that again will show nothing as you stated yourself, so that leave us with one way to check which is better and that is "what do the players, buyers say" when a product is chosen as best in the market or best of the year, it doesn't realy say that this the best product but it does say that most buyers think so, so it's considered to be the best, so Joss is considered to be the better of the two, there is another factor and that's the Branding of the product, people relate to product that has a good reputation and history and in this category Joss is the big winner

[ThePoolHustler]

You are correct, my mistake.

.02 = 2%
.05 = 5%

I forgot to remove the decimals. These are still good numbers. All of these posts are making me lose my mind. lol

Yeah, no doubt.. 8O

Erik, at the least, you definitely get people posting on the board... ;)

Oh...and people like controversy...whether they like to admit that or not. This is what draws people in. I am a smart "cookie". I wish I had some milk.

I once put a meeting together of over 300 students and professors within a couple of weeks...on my own. I did it by creating some controversy. I got things done too. They made some changes. No one could believe how many people showed up to this meeting, not even the dean of the business school. He was extremely surprised when everyone showed up. He stated this to me.

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[audiopro]

You just like stirring the pot. :lol:

Or smoking it!! ha ha... j/k...

[Sid]

If I was a new person comming onto the board, I would be scared to ask a simple question.

This thread became useless after the first page. (No, I did not read it all. with all the ramblings and crap, why bother.)

I liked the forum better when answers to questions were directed to the original poster. Seems to cheapen it to me.

Just my opinion.

[spartan]

we all said that we prefer joss to lucasi. then ThePoolHuslter chimed in about facts and studies and proof and $&^t like that.

[ThePoolHustler]

I gave Erik facts. But since he does not like them, he titles them invalid and words around them to try and make himself believe they actually were invalid.

What FACTS did you give me audio? You told me that 2 people you know have defective Lucasi cues. Okay, that is a fact. Now...how many Lucasi cues were/have been produced? Of those cues, how many have been defective?

The following is just an example:

Let's say that Lucasi produced 100 cues and 2 were defective. This means that .02% of all cues made were defective. This is a great number, not a bad number. Let's say Joss produced 100 cues and 5 were defective. This is .05%. This is still a great number, even though they produced more defective cues. However, the fact is Joss produced more defective cues. Does this make Joss cues inferior. No. Does it make Lucasi cues superior. No. In order to do a proper analysis, you have to analyze the entire picture and not just a small sample in your area. Until this is done, you won't really know the truth.

8) 8) 8) 8)

2 out of 100 is 2% not .02%
5 out of 100 is 5% not .05%

how do you count defective products, do you count those that reach the market and were returned or do you count the defctive products that were found on the production line as well.

Lucasi probably has more defective cues then joss because they make more cues so the probability of making more defective cues is higher so I think you should look at a percentage of an anual production.
But that again will show nothing as you stated yourself, so that leave us with one way to check which is better and that is "what do the players, buyers say" when a product is chosen as best in the market or best of the year, it doesn't realy say that this the best product but it does say that most buyers think so, so it's considered to be the best, so Joss is considered to be the better of the two, there is another factor and that's the Branding of the product, people relate to product that has a good reputation and history and in this category Joss is the big winner

Skor,

We already straightened out the percentage thing.

I would like to count ALL defective parts, but this probably isn't feasible. I already stated that Lucasi probably produces more cues, which is why they turn out more defective cues. And yes, I think we need to look at a percentage of annual production...not every cue ever produced...just current production numbers, or last year's production numbers. Something like that.

Now...why is everyone buying a certain product? Is it because Joss advertises more than Lucasi? Is it because more people know about Joss vs Lucasi? Joss may have more buyers based on these things. Therefore, if more people own Joss cues vs Lucasi cues then the results will probably be in the favor of Joss. I'm not sure that this is the best way to get the results. Considered to be the best and being the best are two totally different things. I realize that you know this. Branding does play an important role...the "hype" role that I have been talking about. Branding is mostly about "hype". It's about marketing and advertising. Some companies do a lot of this. Others do not. Sometimes the ones that don't produce better products. Maybe Lucasi needs to do more of this. I don't know. If they did, maybe the results would be different. We don't really know do we?

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[spartan]

give it a rest erik. this forum is supposed to be about pool not about your facts studies percentages, etc.

[skor]

..... and frankly my dear I don't give a damn any more... :twisted:

I had enough of this, I think that sid is right

[ThePoolHustler]

It all comes down to personal preference, but on some things opinions are more widely shared on one side of a choice than others. Sure, there will always be those few who might pick the Hyundai but the fact is that a lot more are going to take the BWM so there is as close of a factual answer as you will get.

Contact the car manufacturers to find out what their sales have been for particular models. That would give you a somewhat factual answer. You would have to do something like Coke and Pepsi used to do...have a taste test...drive test...something...lol

Personally, I wouldn't just choose a BMW over a Hyundai without doing a little research...test driving them...etc.

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You just like stirring the pot. :lol:

EXACTLY

There is nothing wrong with this. It gets us all thinking HEAVILY. At least I have everyone's attention...for the most part.

Now...I should be getting to the pool hall to practice shooting with my Lucasi cue with a 314 shaft. Maybe I will try a house cue today and compare the two. Heck, maybe I will take my Nimbus 2000 Flying Pool Cue and try that out.

LMFAO

Fury...give them the answer to the Joss vs Lucasi question. You know that I have played with both. You know what I have said about both. Tell them which butt I would truly use with the 314 shaft. Oh, and you can tell them what cue tips I truly use too. Give them all the facts. Go ahead. Maybe they will be surprised a little.

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[audiopro]

I had enough of this, I think that sid is right

And on that note...