Jobs going overseas Bush's fault?

[DZ314]

Got this in an email...


Made In Mexico


Shortly after reading the following e-mail content, I happened to look at
the label of a jar of Heinz sandwich slice pickles. Yep.... Made in Mexico.

Check some of your Heinz products. Sen. John Kerry keeps talking about
U.S. Corporations leaving this country and setting up shop in foreign
countries, taking thousands of jobs with them. He is right, because that has happened.


However, he is trying to blame it on George W. Bush. As far as I know,
Bush has not moved one factory out of this country because he is not the owner of a single factory.

That cannot be said about Kerry and his wife, Teresa Heinz-Kerry.
According to the Wall Street Journal, the Kerry’s own 32 factories in Europe and 18 in Asia and the Pacific. In addition, their company, the Heinz Company, leases four factories in Europe and four in Asia. Also, they own 27 factories in North America, some of which are in Mexico and the Caribbean. 80% of Heinz products are made overseas. I wonder how many hundreds of American workers lost their jobs when these plants relocated in foreign countries. I also wonder if the workers in Mexico and Asia are paid the same wages and benefits as workers in the United States. Of course they're not. However, Kerry demands that other companies that relocate should pay the same benefits they did in the U.S. Why does he not demand this of the Heinz Company, since he is married to the owner? If Kerry is elected, will he and his wife close all those foreign factories and bring all those jobs back to America? Of course they won't. They're making millions off that cheap labor.

[dags_lax]

All of that may be interesting but it is deceptively misleading. I am not disputing the facts presented, they may very well be the truth. The misdirection comes from the assumption that Teresa Heinz-Kerry owns the Heinz Corporation. In fact she does not. She owns 7% of the stock which is far from ownership or even controlling interest. Now I am not privy to the Bush family portfolio but I would be surprised if some of the family holdings didn’t involve companies that did business overseas and employed non American workers. As strong of pro American worker that I am I am sure some of the companies that my money is invested in also do business overseas as well.

[audiopro]

Tough not to put money in non-Americans now a days. Even when you buy an American product such as a Ford, or Chevrolet, they are often built in other Countries, or employ parts made in in other countries..

dags, what is your opinion on this scenario.. Honda for example is a Japanese car, but there is a plant in Ohio I believe that makes the cars. So in effect Americans are benefitting from the purchase of a Honda yes? And as mentioned before, Chevy for instance had a plant in Canada, so while an American company, Canadians were getting the benefit in ways we as Americans are not...

As you probably already know I strongly support backing Americans and American made products.. But where do you draw the line, and how do you know where to even draw it? It seems now a days immpossible to know who is really getting how much... I ask your opinion on the subject because I know you are probably more educated on it.. And I was wondering how to go about making sound American supportive decisions...

[mechmat]

The first overseas offices for the Heinz were opened in 1896. The first overseas factory was built in 1905. The company went public in 1946 and opened more overseas factories. I tend to doubt that Teresa had much to say about any of those moves.

Also, the Heinz family has not been in charge of the Heinz company since 1987. Teresa has never been involved in any aspect of the day to day operations of the Heinz company. She works exclusively with the Heinz Family Philanthropies and the Howard Heinz Endowement.

[mechmat]

If you'd like to talk about some un-american family business connections, you might want to look at this...

In the mid-1990s, George H.W. Bush joined up with the Carlyle Group. “Under the leadership of ex-officials like Baker and former Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci, Carlyle developed a specialty in buying defense companies and doubling or quadrupling their value. The ex-president not only became an investor in Carlyle, but a member of the company's Asia Advisory Board and a rainmaker who drummed up investors. Twelve rich Saudi families, INCLUDING THE BIN LADENS, were among them. In 2002, the Washington Post reported, ‘Saudis close to Prince Sultan, the Saudi defense minister ... were encouraged to put money into Carlyle as a favor to the elder Bush.’ Bush retired from the company last October, and Baker, who lobbied U.S. allies last month to forgive Iraq's debt, remains a Carlyle senior counselor. Kevin Phillips, “The Barreling Bushes; Four Generations of the Dynasty Have Chased Profits Through Cozy Ties with Mideast Leaders, Spinning Webs of Conflicts of Interest,” Los Angeles Times, January 11, 2004.

The bin Laden family first invested in Carlyle in 1994. Representing Carlyle’s Asia Board, George H.W. Bush visited the bin laden family's headquarters in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Kurt Eichenwald, “Bin Laden Family Liquidates Holdings With Carlyle Group,” The New York Times, October 26, 2001.

Interesting, huh?

[DZ314]

I guess if you want to go with that logic, any American who has ever bought gasoline has business ties with the Bin Ladens because they are in oil, right? :roll: BTW, how does that have anything to do with american jobs going overseas? Trying to change the subject is not going to help your cause.

[parrothead]

Does the fact that the BIn laden family cut Osama off long before 9-11 help to make them more legit to do business with?

[audiopro]

Yeah, and the bin Laden's have real estate here in Sunny Florida!

Not sure I am quite thrilled about that though..

[DZ314]

Oh come on man, aren't ya gonna invite them over for tea and crumpets? :lol:

[mechmat]

Why would you believe the Bin Laden's when they say they cut him off? His brother lied on national television about not getting shipped out of the country after 9/11, do you really think he's trustworthy?

[mechmat]

...and I'd be happy to get back on your subject as soon as you show me a reason to think that John Kerry or Teresa have any input into where Heinz puts it's factories.

[dags_lax]

Some of the responsibility for job losses stems from treaties such NAFTA and others ratified by a republican controlled senate and signed by a democratic president. More job losses come from changes in the tax code under the Bush administration that make it even more economically favorable for companies to move overseas.

Because big money controls politics, Republicans and Democrats alike, there is plenty of blame to be shared. The question shouldn't be just who is to blame for the job losses but more so what can be done to rectify the problem. If job losses were a concern for Bush you think he would be able to do something about it. After all his party also controls the house and senate.

While Bush may tout the latest figure of 100,000 + jobs created in the last month what he doesn't tell you is that is less jobs than the number of new workers entering the work force minus the number of workers voluntarily leaving the work force. What Bush also will not tell you is that these jobs pay an average of $9000 a year less and with fewer benefits than the jobs lost under his administration. America still has a net loss of over 1,000,000 jobs since the Bush administration took over.

When it comes to jobs and the economy in general I don’t think Bush has the courage and moral character to stand up to his corporate backers and put American citizens ahead of corporate interests and the ultra wealthy. He hasn’t done it in his first four years and he hasn’t done anything to make me believe a second term will be any different. Will Kerry do a better job? I don’t know. What I don’t see is Kerry doing a worse job.

[dags_lax]

As for Bin Laden family ties to Osama there has been some reports that not all members of the family are as clean as they would have us believe. But there may be no more to these reports than there was to the report about a senior Iraqi official meeting with one of the 9/11 terrorists.

[DZ314]

Open your eyes, Kerry is a boob! He can't help things. He'll have us drinking tea and eating crumpets with terrorists! He'll have the taxes on everything from income to gasoline jacked through the roof! We cannot allow that to happen!

[audiopro]

dags, wouldn't you think that some of the job loss is not because of the administration, but maybe the terror attacks of 9-11? I know I lost my good paying job of three years to it.. I don't see how Bush is to blame, I blame the terrorists...

I think there are so many other economical variables that are involved with job loss, that are not under the control of the presidential administration. For them to be held responsible for such, does not make sense to me. I do however remember Bush making changes to such things as unemplyment. Extending it from I think 6 months, to a year?? Um, personally... Given the situation we were in at the time, it made sense to me..

[dags_lax]

No, not all of the job losses are the fault of the current administration and congress. Some of them are the result of 9/11. Some of them are the fault Clinton Administration and the Republican controlled congress. And some of the job losses (and job creation for that matter) are beyond the control of the government. But make no mistake about it, there are job losses that can be laid at the feet of this administration.

One example: Traditionally profits on American businesses are taxed in the year that they are realized. Part of the Bush tax package allowed American businesses to delay the recording of profits (for tax purposes) on profits from overseas operations. Obviously this is an incentive to move operations offshore and many companies have done just that. This was in the works before 9/11 and, terrorists or not, it would have still had the same effect of costing American jobs.

Not to knowledgeable about unemployment benefits so I did a little searching on the net and found that there is an additional 13 weeks of TEUC (temporary extended unemployment compensation) federal unemployment benefits available for workers who have exhausted their state eligibility (generally 26 weeks). Not all workers are eligible for the TEUC.

This extended benefit plan originally expired in December 2002 and was not renewed until there was enough public pressure for renewal, which came several months after it expired. The current plan is set to expire once again this December. This being an election year I don’t think you will find to many politicians that will fight against its renewal. That doesn’t mean it will be renewed, as there is a big difference between opposing something, or even supporting something, and working to make that something come about.

[dags_lax]

dags, what is your opinion on this scenario.. Honda for example is a Japanese car, but there is a plant in Ohio I believe that makes the cars. So in effect Americans are benefitting from the purchase of a Honda yes?

Buying American is difficult. It is not always practical or even possible. My last pair of tennis shoes were made in China. I checked the whole store and all the athletic shoes were made in China. My wife just purchased a new Grand Prix. Guess what? Assembled in Toronto from parts manufactured all over North America (or world?).

As for your Honda in Ohio example, the answer is yes and no. They certainly benefit more than if you bought a Volkswagen that was made in Germany. American workers benefit from the Honda plant on one level. On another level that Honda plant is bad for American workers. Honda pays less in wages and benefits than do the “Detroit” car companies so that puts a downward pressure on the wages in the industry as a whole.

Another way that Honda business practices hurt America, is with taxes. When Honda of America buys a parts from Honda of Japan to go into the Ohio Hondas they pay an inflated prices. The result is that Honda shows little profit on American Operations. Those majority of Honda’s profits are shown from operations outside the US so those profits are not taxed in the US where as GM or Ford profits end up being taxed in the US. This hurts the American worker because the revenues that Uncle Sam doesn’t get from Honda will end up being paid by American workers and businesses. At one time this method of offshore companies not recording profits from US operations was common place but political pressure on foreign governments has lessened this practice somewhat but foreign companies are still do not pay American taxes on their true American profits. Unfortunately more and more, profitable American companies are escaping US taxes altogether so this argument looses some of its validity.

As for buying American if I can’t, I at least try to avoid the sweatshop companies and countries.

[audiopro]

Thanks for the reply dags...

My buying habits typically seem to follow a pattern. First I am always looking for quality over everything else. I'll spend 20 bucks on one Snap-On brand wrench as opposed to buying a whole set of Craftsmen wrenches for the same price. Quality just really matters especially when you depend on it. Mixed in with that I try to buy American. Fortunately with many things the two are synonymous. Quality and American can go hand in hand. However with most electronics, that's not that case. After that, I typically buy from somewhere that will directly benefit myself or a friend or family member. My brother manages a Publix grocery store, so I shop at Publix. My step dad a Firestone tire center, so I buy from him. I'll drive a bit further just to buy from their store as opposed to someone else’s that offers the same thing. After that, comes convenience. When all else is even or not applicable, I just pull in to the quickest and easiest place. I'd rather make a right hand turn into the gas station charging $2 a gallon as opposed to making a left hand turn across traffic for $1.95 gas.

[mechmat]

I'm pretty sure all Corvettes are manufactured in Bowling Green, KY. So everyone should drive Corvettes :)

[audiopro]

Right you are Mechmat! Good point, I will second we all drive Vettes! Especially if you have can hook up with a new C6!! The car is sweeeet!!!!

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