How to Start Each Day with a Positive Outlook [Archive] - Seybert's Billiard Supply Discussion Forum

DZ314

09-07-2004, 04:15 PM

I don't know if I would say that, guess it depends on which bush you are speaking of. :lol: I do not like Kerry at all, however. His senate voting record shows a lot of contradictory patterns. He just seems to go with the flow on things and does not have a solid platform like Bush does. I also prefer lower taxes, the deficit does not matter a hell of a lot to me. Clintonomics, high taxes and low deficit, compared to Reaganomics, low taxes and a spending deficit, makes a difference to me. I want to control more of my money rather than the beauracrats in Washington.

mechmat

09-07-2004, 05:20 PM

I don't know if this has played out a whole lot in the national media, but our good friend Dubya would like to dump nuclear waste on Yucca Mountain here in Nevada. The facility proposed for Yucca Mountain was determined to be unable to not leak for the specified minimum amount of time (I think it's 10,000 years) and has had significant seismic activity within the last 50 years. In an effort to stick to his self proclaimed, never change his mind philosophy, he will not concede that it is a bad idea, or promise that he will not pursue it further in the future, once he can get someone to tell him it might be safe(which it won't).

To summerize, he wants to dump nuclear waste into an unsafe facility on a mountain that has the occasional earthquake. If that's not a good reason to vote someone out of office, I don't know what is.

BTW, I'm a conservative, and I'm voting for Kerry.

DEATHTRON

09-07-2004, 07:16 PM

Well no one is perfect. By the way Im a good old down south republican, im voting Bush.

Zach

DZ314

09-07-2004, 07:54 PM

audiopro

09-08-2004, 09:12 AM

I watched an interview with Colin and then Madalyn this morning.. Colin of course defended the US troops in Iraq and their continuing mission there.. When Diane Sawyer of Good Morning America asked Madalyn what Kerry's stance was on the troops, she could not get a straight answer.. She even asked a second time stating, "I dont really understand, so what is Kerry's plan for the troops. Does he plan to bring them all back, some back, a signifigant amount back, or what?"

Again the reply was cloudy as Madalyn retorted "I think there is a desire from every American to see our troops return"

In her previous attempt to answer the question she totally skated around it by repeatedly stating how the "Current Administration" had made too many mistakes and "Gross Miscalculations"...

lol... I'm Voting for Bush...

DZ314

09-08-2004, 09:36 AM

Sure, they can be specific on their criticisms of Bush but when it comes to the meat of their own policies they fall flat on their faces. Their only platform is an anti-platform. They have no real idea of what exactly to do once they get the chance. It is a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. I guess they'll just go ahead and do whatever is being asked of them at the time, since it is apparent that is the familiar mode of operation for Kerry in his 20 year senate stint.

skor

09-08-2004, 10:54 AM

None of them realy knows what they are talking about, they all say what their advisors tell them to say, so the question is who has better advisors....

dags_lax

09-08-2004, 11:42 AM

Everyone would like to pay less taxes. But the truth is that our tax dollars are what provide for the services that the government provides. When taxes are cut there are fewer dollars available to provide services. If services are not cut that necessitates the need for government to borrow to provide those services. Just as with personal finances the dollars the government borrows needs to be paid back with interest. And just like with your personal finances, money paid in interest by government is not money that is available to provide services for the citizenry.

I do not mean to say that the government should never run in the red. Just like with personal finances, at times it is necessary borrow against future income. And just like with personal finances that borrowing should never be taken lightly.

While it easy for us to say that we should cut back on the services that government provides, no one is willing to volunteer to eliminate programs that they benefit from. This not to say that programs do not get eliminated or scaled back, they do. It’s just that new programs get started or other receive increased funding. The fact is that every administration, Republican and Democrats alike, have spent more than their predecessor!

I know that people are going to say that tax cuts stimulate the economy and that will lead to the recovery of those tax dollars and more. Historically that has not been the case. While the economy may receive a boost the lost tax revenues are never completely recouped. LBJ needed to raise taxes after the Kennedy cuts. Regan had to raise taxes after his own tax cuts and Bush the Elder needed to raise them even more. Make no mistake about it, at some point the bill will come due and there will be tax increases to offset Dubya’s tax cuts.

Now when taxes get raised is where it gets interesting. While tax cuts generally are skewed to favor the wealthy, tax increases are targeted at the working and middle class. Is it no wonder that average Americans feel that they are being taxed to death? What history has shown, and the middle class fails to understand, is that after each round of tax cuts and increases they have lost ground. When income tax was instituted in the early 1900’s the vast majority of Americans paid no income tax.. If the tax code from then were to be adjusted for inflation an American earning less than $60,000.00 would still pay no income tax!

audiopro

09-08-2004, 11:53 AM

I can at times find it amazing even the local tax increases people fight so intently against. Dubya's brother Jeb is the Governor here in FL, and is often blamed for poor education. However when the time comes for us to vote yay or nay for a 1 cent county tax increase to help fund the schools, people vote against it.. The same happens for road improvements, public services, and other state funded items..

Personally as far as I am concerned, a 1 cent sales tax increase means nothing for me to pay, but the benefits for many people will be great, however transparent to some degree..

FL does not have a state income tax, so all our funding comes generally from sales taxes of some sort.. Now, federal taxes... While I hate paying them, and believe me I HATE it.. Well.. It funds this great nation.. We are the strongest, most stable nation in the world.. So while it may be a pain in the neck at times, it does at least serve a purpose..

Granted, it would definitely be nice if they would tax middle and lower class less, and upper class more.. Seems to me they would miss it less, and would not suffer a change in lifestyle because of it... I'm no expert on the subject however.. There may be a lot more to it, but logic seems to say otherwise...

dags_lax

09-08-2004, 01:52 PM

I am not a big fan of sales, property, ss/fica, use taxes, taxes on beer, telephone bills, gasoline, etc ….. Those type of taxes are regressive and hurt most those that have the least. If I had my way only income and corporate profits would be taxed. And all income would be taxed regardless of the source of that income. Wages, long and short term capital gains all would be treated the same, as income. And tax rates would be graduated so a person with an income of $150,000.00 pays a higher percentage than some one with $50,000.00 of income and at some point there should be a level where income under a certain amount should not be taxed at all.

I don’t have a problem paying a higher percent of my income in taxes than some one with less income. And conversely some one who has a greater income than myself should pay a higher percentage than me.

audiopro

09-08-2004, 02:05 PM

I don’t have a problem paying a higher percent of my income in taxes than some one with less income. And conversely some one who has a greater income than myself should pay a higher percentage than me.

Agreed! For the life of me, I can not figure out why this model is not used???

DZ314

09-08-2004, 02:07 PM

Big money (corporations/rich/special interest) is in the shot callers' pockets, that is why. If the common man could pool enough money to grease some pockets I am sure we could have low taxes compared to our income too.

mechmat

09-08-2004, 02:35 PM

Where are you getting this information from?

Here you go.
http://www.ananuclear.org/2002%20DC%20Days%20yucca%20FS.pdf

I was wrong about one part, the facility was approved to be safe for 10,000 years, but the Department of Energy said that that was not long enough.

I don't mind if someone makes mistakes. I mind if those mistakes are not fixed, especially for nothing more than political motives.

DZ314

09-08-2004, 03:27 PM

Is there another site which is being looked at to dump these wastes? If that site is truly unfit I must wonder why then is it being considered so readily. Something smells fishy here, I dunno. Sounds like we are only hearing one side of the story.

DZ314

09-08-2004, 03:31 PM

As far as taxes funding useful projects, I would much rather have my money and formulate my own solution to health care, etc than trust in our government to handle it properly. Social Security is a mess as it is and the way things look all of the money I have paid in up until I retire will be swallowed up long before I can draw it, which I detest. Until some major reforms/overhauls take place, I'll take my chances in handling my money.

audiopro

09-08-2004, 03:49 PM

I have a better solution that no one seems to have proposed...

Bill gates should simply give everyone a portion of his fortune.. Say 100k to each person in the US.. He should have enough for that.. Right... lol...

Obviously I'm kidding... :)

DZ314

09-08-2004, 03:59 PM

I wouldn't turn it down. 8)

9balldiva

09-08-2004, 04:06 PM

9balldiva

09-08-2004, 04:17 PM

Where are you getting this information from?

Here you go.
http://www.ananuclear.org/2002%20DC%20Days%20yucca%20FS.pdf

Where does this site come from. It looks like two pieces of paper stuck on the web to make people like you feel they have something solid against Bush. Why has nobody else brought this to the country's attention. With all the bashing Kerry does, I would think he would use this too. Do you have another location this information is posted...I tend not to believe something that is only documented in ONE place. Most truth can be found in several locations.

DZ314

09-08-2004, 04:20 PM

BUSH IN '04!!

Did you all get the priveledge of watching Zel Miller's speech...that was the best speech.

(About Kerry)- "I could go on and on and on: against the Patriot Missile that shot down Saddam Hussein's scud missiles over Israel; against the Aegis air-defense cruiser; against the Strategic Defense Initiative; against the Trident missile; against, against, against.

This is the man who wants to be the Commander in Chief of our U.S. Armed Forces?

U.S. forces armed with what? Spitballs?"

That was my favorite part!!

Mine too! I watched it and was very proud to have an American like him standing up for what is right. We cannot sit back and allow the mealy-mouth girlie-men libs to take over the country and have us getting bent over by any terrorist organization which poses a threat to our nation.

dags_lax

09-08-2004, 05:00 PM

I would much rather have my money and formulate my own solution to health care, etc than trust in our government to handle it properly.

That is a great idea if you have enough money to set aside and be able to plan for the future. But for millions of Americans who live from paycheck to paycheck the reality is that they will never be able to set aside enough to cover future medical expenses.

Think about if there were no Medicare how much would health insurance cost you when you were sixty five. Let's say you didn't pick good parents and heart problems run in the family. How much is insurance going to cost you then? That answer is easy. It is going to cost you nothing because no company will insure you.

Bush likes to promote the idea of tax free medical savings accounts and similar ideas for education accounts. Tax free individual retirement accounts are available and as wonderful as they are only a small percentage of Americans have them.

Bushes ownership society sounds great. Increased personal responsibility for ones own future not to mention great sound bites on television. But if you look closely you will see that the people that it benefits the most are those that already own society. It cost money to run the government and for every tax dollar that the wealthy can get out of paying is a dollar that is added to the burden of the middle class tax payer.

As for social security it has become an entrenched entitlement program. So much so that in order to soften the blow on future tax payers SS taxes were raised before the need was there. It turns out that that was a very bad thing to do because that surplus was used to fund part of the Bush tax cuts. When the boomers start retiring en mass they are going to demand what they feel they have coming and the unfortunate working guy is going to have to pony up once more. It’s ironic that due to the cap on amount of SS taxes a wage earner pays in a year but the SS surplus was used to fund tax cuts that primarily benefited those that paid a much smaller fraction of their income in SS taxes than the average worker.

On a personal note I am not a fan of social security as an entitlement. Social Security benefits should be paid based solely on need. Why should a person be taxed to provide income for some one whose retirement income exceeds that of the worker?

dags_lax

09-08-2004, 05:24 PM

Only in America can:

One man can volunteer for the Navy. That man volunteered for combat duty, served honorably and be recognized with medals.

Another man can use daddy’s influence to get bumped ahead of 500 others for a cushy spot in the champagne unit of the Texas Air National Guard.

While one man was risking his life serving his country in the Mekong Delta another man found the though of protecting the Mississippi Delta so frightening that he failed to report for duty.

Only in America could the man who served his country with courage and valor be labeled as a “girlie man” while the man who shirked his duty to his country, failed in every business endeavor (except for the Texas Rangers where he was purely a figure head whose usefulness was limited to family connections), who has been bought and paid for by big business, be called a leader and man of courage.

Only in America would people buy into that.

09-08-2004, 11:20 PM

Where does this site come from. It looks like two pieces of paper stuck on the web to make people like you feel they have something solid against Bush. Why has nobody else brought this to the country's attention. With all the bashing Kerry does, I would think he would use this too. Do you have another location this information is posted...I tend not to believe something that is only documented in ONE place. Most truth can be found in several locations.

There are a ton of places to get this information, but I'm not going to take the time to find every single one of them for 'people like you.' If you really want all the info, call the Democratic and Republican headquarters here in Nevada. I'm sure they'd both be happy to help.
I don't know why it's not a bigger issue. It's almost all they talk about here when either candidate is in town. As far as the bashing goes, if you remember (which you probably don't since I doubt you watched the Democratic convention) Dubya's name was rarely, if ever mentioned, while almost every speaker that made the television broadcast at the Republican convention made a point to attack Kerry's character and policies.

Here's a couple sites with info on both sides of the arguement.
http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/ymp/about/index.shtml
http://www.yuccamountain.org/
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Jul-10-Sat-2004/news/24281032.html

To the question about alternatives to Yucca Mountain, no, they haven't looked at other locations, but here's a good article about some alternatives.

http://www.yuccamountain.org/pdf/alternatives03.pdf

The main point of all of the opposition to this project is that there are signifcant risks to building this facility, but only 5% of the nations nuclear waste will fit into the facility in it's relatively short (28 years I think) period before it is full.

DEATHTRON

09-09-2004, 03:59 AM

Here come the liberals, look what you did Diva, shame on you! Just having a little political fun, hope i didnt offend someone.

Zach

DZ314

09-09-2004, 08:01 AM

It's not her fault, not all of it, I was bad too! Yeah right, it is all just some good civil political discussion. I hope we can keep it that way. Many of us are at different stages in our lives, have different values, and take different sides to many issues. That is what makes us as human beings a great species! We are so different! Woohooo for being different! 8)

skor

09-09-2004, 09:33 AM

...against the Patriot Missile that shot down Saddam Hussein's scud missiles over Israel....

Those Patriots were a disaster, they missed the Skads and fell over houses in Israel with the skads, doubleing the damage.....

DZ314

09-09-2004, 10:04 AM

skor

09-09-2004, 10:16 AM

BEEN THERE, SAW THEM GETTING LAUNCHED, SAW THEM MISSING THE SKADS, SAW THEM FALLING TO THE GROUND

DZ314

09-09-2004, 10:38 AM

BEEN THERE, SAW THEM GETTING LAUNCHED, SAW THEM MISSING THE SKADS, SAW THEM FALLING TO THE GROUND

SOUNDS LIKE THE MEDIA MISSED A PRIME OPPORTUNITY TO SMEAR BUSH ON THAT ONE!!!!! :lol:

9balldiva

09-09-2004, 11:19 AM

As far as the bashing goes, if you remember (which you probably don't since I doubt you watched the Democratic convention) Dubya's name was rarely, if ever mentioned, while almost every speaker that made the television broadcast at the Republican convention made a point to attack Kerry's character and policies.

It is well documented. I did my own search after I posted the last one. My only concern is that the only story we see is everyone elses. I am not doubting the validity of the case, but I am doubting the extent to which it is valid.

On bashing...you are right, I did not get to catch the democratic convention. I have, however, had a chance to catch all the commercials on public television that attack the President. Bush campaigning has held back in television commercials when "attacking" Kerry is the topic. Look back to the first aired commercials...Kerry started attacking, and for a while it was talked about, because Bush wasn't trying to retaliate. At the republican convention, most of the people who attacked Kerry were speakers. Watch the speech of Bush's daughters...they don't mention Kerry; watch Laura's speech...she doesn't mention Kerry! The people who DID mention Kerry told facts...facts about what he opposes, facts about what he has planned for possible presidency, facts about what he believes... Facts is not bashing Kerry; if anyone is bashing Kerry, it is him doing it to himself by believing what he believes!

DZ314

09-09-2004, 11:25 AM

Amen sistah!!! Check it:

mechmat

09-09-2004, 04:54 PM

All of the commercials that attack Bush state nothing but facts either, that's what attacking is about. You pick out the issues the other candidate is weak on or has made mistakes with and tell everyone about them. And you did forget to mention that Bush himself as you say 'stated facts' about Kerry. And if you can explain how calling anyone a 'Girlie Man' is not an attack, I'd like to hear it.

I really have no intention of changing your mind about Bush or Kerry. I'm just an anonymous person in cyberspace to you, as you are to me. But I'd hope that everyone who plans on voting informs themselves. There is a ton of information all over the media and the internet about both candidates, and I really think you're not doing the process justice if you do nothing more than watch the GOP Convention and some commercials you see on tv and call yourself informed. Go to both johnkerry.com and georgewbush.com and read about their plans. In fact, here's a pile of anti bush and anti kerry sites if you prefer the negative side of it:

http://www.flipflopper.com/
http://www.johnkerrybad4us.com/
http://www.vetsagainstkerry.org/
http://moveon.org/front/
http://www.independentreport.org/
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/

Like I said before, I'm a conservative. I didn't like Clinton, I didn't like Gore, and I don't like Bush. If the Republicans got rid of Bush and put up someone else who was actually competant to run this country I'd probably vote for him.
I don't like the way Bush is handling Iraq, I don't like his ideology that prevents him from supporting things like stem cell research and gay marriage, and I don't want a truck full of nuclear waste driving by my house and dumping it in my backyard.

audiopro

09-09-2004, 05:09 PM

mechmat, admittadly so educating yourself as to the candidates background and opinions is a good idea.. But something that I find I vote on more than anything else, is character. I listen to them, I watch them, and I try to get a feel for what kind of person they are.. To me I just feel Bush is more of a good ole boy, maybe not so bright, but definitely more honest and emotional. Kerry to me doesn't come off as bad as say.. Al Gore.. That man I did not feel I would trust with anything.. But, while not near as bad, I still dont get a good feel, so to speak, from Kerry...

That along with their values, and what they want to do with the administration, is what I vote on.. But there is more to a person than what you will read in print.. So while you encourage people to educate themselves via print media, I encourage people to watch, and listen to them in person also.. (In person being, at least to watch them on TV, not read something that was said or done)

Just my 2 cents... :)

mechmat

09-10-2004, 12:50 PM

Yeah, watching speeches and interviews, and especially debates (which Bush is trying to avoid) are a good idea, just makes sure you watch both candidates, not just one.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 02:38 PM

lol, if you were Bush.. And you couldn't say Nuclear, wouldn't you try to avoid them too.. lol..

Poor George, he just has this curse of flubbing words.. It is funny though, to me makes him seem a bit more human.. Like I can relate with that...

By the way, on the radio today I heard some interesting facts regarding Bush's service in the Air Gaurd or whatever.. Seems that for 4 years he served well above the minimum of 50 points, clocking in at like 280, 320, 120, and 150 for each respective year.. The 5 year and after his time tapered off due to running for various office...

No one seems to talk about the time he DID serve... Also of interest were service notes stating what a good leader he was...

DZ314

09-10-2004, 02:52 PM

Yeah, you'll never hear any of the antis talking about those facts. They are all for skewing things to make him look bad. :roll:

9balldiva

09-10-2004, 03:02 PM

Audiopro: A "good leader" that he STILL is.

Mechmat: Bashing: No, attacking is naming the person, then the perspective, then criticizing the perspective. That is attacking/bashing a person. When you call someone a "girlie man" that's an insult....

Insult: to affect offensively or damagingly

Bash: to attack physically or verbally

Calling him a girlie man is sorta like calling Bush a bad president. They are words, that you have to shrug off...it's part of being an adult.

Don't like Bush's ideology on gay marriage and stem cell research...??? Bush made a policy to accommodate both sides on stem cell research. It allows the scientists to get public funding for existing lines, but no more than that. Compromise is fair...that's an ideology that most people lack! Gay marriage...that's touchy for some people. Two of my best friends are gay together, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it. Where I was raised, it was a man and a woman. Nevada is kinda close to California though, I can see where you may have grown up around different scenes. Hetero marriage never had to be legalized, it was tradition, culture, Christian, and the norm. Now years later, because some people decided to be different, all the sudden we are upposed to create a new "norm"...sorry, can't agree with you there. Bush is a very Christian man, I don't blame him at all for keeping this sin from being a law.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 03:28 PM

Still yes.. Correct you are Diva...

And yes, my sister is gay and she has a girlfriend. They are both ultra cool.. When they call me on the phone they say "Hey, what's up dork" to which my reply is, "Hey, sup fag!"

Now it is obviously said in a joking manner. And guess what, neither of them give a damn.. It is a joke, they get that.. Today they asked if dad would let them borrow the truck.. I said, "I doubt it, who would want gay people in their car" Everyone laughed.. I love em, they are great..

But guess what... Marriage in this country is based on Christian beliefs.. It is a promise under God. And that, is NOT something I believe gays should have, my sis obviously thinks different. A civil union, yes.. That gives them all the rights and benefits of marriage, but is not an oath under God.. Personally though, I think straight people should have unions under the government and marriage under their respective church. Both being a seperate matter... That way, we fully have our seperation of church and state. Although, I hate seperation of church and state. I think the government should back the Chrisitan faith as it is one of the founding ideals...

Okay, I could go on and on.. But I wont...

9balldiva

09-10-2004, 03:39 PM

I agree Audio...they can commit themselves, and unionize themselves, but to take it to a marriage level Under God, is a bit much. I can't see a preacher wanting to be a part of that. I really don't even know if I agree with giving them marital benefits...I'm still unsure about that. There's arguements to both sides that I aggree and disagree with...

Deb

09-10-2004, 03:42 PM

As someone said "Who cares what they do in their bedrooms?....Why should the homosexuals "come out" of the closet? Shouldn't the hetrosexual do the same thing? Jump out of the closet and say "I'm a hetro!"? STILL to this day, we have double standard."

Interesting.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 03:49 PM

Actually as of lately, I've been jumping IN the closet.. It is the safest place to hide from all these hurricanes and tornados we've been having...

When it all comes down to it, do whatever... Few things in life affect me so much it would bother or be an annoyance of any kind. If it becomes allowed, then so be it.. I don't agree with it, but I'm hardly going to fight against it. I'll leave that to somebody who would rather spend their time doing that, instead of playing pool!! Speaking of which, anyone here still play pool ever??

DZ314

09-10-2004, 04:03 PM

Yep, I played in my new league last night! I played pretty well! 8)

9balldiva

09-10-2004, 04:22 PM

I don't care what they do behind closed doors. To me, there are many of them who act as if they are more special, or better than me because they are gay (not ALL of them by any means). What sexual preferences they have is completely up to them, but when you put it on display in the malls, and pool halls, and other places that children are...that is not right. I do not want my kids/siblings seeing that type of thing...it makes them ask too many questions at young ages. A high number of them want everyone else to know they are gay and they display it clearly in public and inf ront of others. My two friends who are gay don't kiss around me (or the public), don't hold hands, nothing sexual...because they have respect for others.

9balldiva

09-10-2004, 04:25 PM

I played pool last night...on our league team. Man I am getting better. I broke and ran for the first time last weekend. I was mighty proud. I also won the All Girls 9-ball Open in Brunswick two weeks ago. My game has improved soooo much.

Hey if any of you guys like Texas Hold 'Em Poker...visit playpokerflorida.com; it's a poker league starting here in Jacksonville, but the guy starting it wants to get it spread to more of Florida, and eventually all over like APA. Some of you who are a little closer to Jax may be interested in doing it. Read up on it and see what you think...

audiopro

09-10-2004, 04:33 PM

Wow Diva, those are some awesome acomplishments! Congrats!!!

I've not played much pool lately myself. Although our team won 1st place for our bar and is going to City's now for our APA league. I was at 87% win ranking.. So my game has definitely improved, last session I was 60 something, which is still decent...

mechmat

09-10-2004, 04:35 PM

Every religion has marriage. So the idea that it's only a Christian practice is out the window. Plus, if any gay couples did get married in a church, then that particular church is obviously approving of gay marriage. So who is Bush to say that that church is wrong? Saying one church is right and another is not is religious persecution, and the people who founded this country came here to escape that practice.

But it doesn't even matter if christianity is approving of it or not. Supposedly this country has seperation of church and state. Saying gay people can't be married because the church doesn't approve of it isn't even a valid arguement. Getting legally married doesn't even have to involve any religious oversite. All you need is a justice of the peace, a marriage license and a witness.

My biggest question for anyone who doesn't want gay marriage to be legal is why do you even care? It has no affect on you. You can't make being gay illegal, so why do you want to make being gay with a little gold ring on your finger illegal? I was taught it school that we are essentially free. The only reason to make any practice illegal is because it infringes on the freedoms of others. Murder takes away someone's right to live. Stealing takes away someone's right to own that property. What right of yours is taken away by gay people getting married?

I would have more respect for Bush if he based his opposition of gay marriage on something other than his own religious beliefs. There are other possible reasons, but he chooses not to use them. There's nothing wrong with having strong ties to your faith, but when he makes a decision that affects the country, and mostly people who aren't even christian, with no other basis than his faith, then he's doing a grave injustice to everyone. It's no better than saying God told him to attack Iraq.

And to those who say being gay is a sin, the bible says that women can't preach. Should every church with a female preacher be made illegal, since that preacher, and everyone who goes to that church is committing a sin? Should everyone who has had sex before they got married go to jail since that's a sin? Should everyone have to only eat kosher food since that's what Jewish people believe? Oh wait, Jewish people don't believe Jesus was the son of God. That's a sin. They need to go to jail too.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 04:47 PM

Hopefully your reply mechmat was not directed to me. If so, you have misread my post...

No but the Christian religion is one of the things this country was founded on, hence my example as it.. And since the idea of marriage was adopted by this country from that religion in particular, is another reason I used..

As said before, the government is no one to say marriage is null or not.. But since marriage IS a religious aspect, let their be civil unions from the government, and marriage from said church..

Also, being gay is a sin.. Fortunately only one sin is not forgivable, and that is not it.. And the bible says women should not speak in church at all.. Not just be a preacher.. Just so ya know..

We all sin according to the Christian faith. And our out for it, is to be saved and ask forgiveness of those sins. The sin of being gay is no more or less than any other sin, save that the unforgivable sin, which is to blasphem the holy spirit. Which is a whole other subject.. :)

9balldiva

09-10-2004, 04:48 PM

Mechmat-"I would have more respect for Bush if he based his opposition of gay marriage on something other than his own religious beliefs. There are other possible reasons, but he chooses not to use them. There's nothing wrong with having strong ties to your faith, but when he makes a decision that affects the country, and mostly people who aren't even christian, with no other basis than his faith, then he's doing a grave injustice to everyone. It's no better than saying God told him to attack Iraq."

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way; all I can say to you is that your outlook is very shallow. Having strong Christian faith is something that is hard to come by these days. Someone who actually stands up to it, and admits his love fro God...now that is a good man. It doesn't affect the country that he doesn't want gays to have legal marriage, it affects gay people...and they by no means make up the whole country. gay is not the norm, and we/our future should not be under the impression that it is. By legalizing it, that is the message it puts off..."Gay is okay." Well buddy, gay is not okay...I have nothing against the people themselves, but I damn sure don't agree with their beliefs...in turn we don't talk about politics. However you put it, whichever way you think Christianism has nothing to do with it, whatever ideas make it suitable to you...they don't work for me...and, honey, that's the way the world turns. You have your opinions and I have mine. Mine happen to be what the president's are, therefore my views get enforced by the laws!

DZ314

09-10-2004, 04:56 PM

Being gay is a sin and it is immoral according to the bible. It is not our place to judge, that is for the lord to do. All of those others things that you mention are correct as well, but what you are failing to see is that no one is talking about putting all gay people in jail. You are talking about some really far-fetched garbage there, with sending people who have sex before marriage to jail because it is a sin. Last I checked no one had ever been arrested for that. Also, I do not believe that people are being arrested for being gay, so try again.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 04:56 PM

Diva, I dont thik mechmat is shallow.. I think he just has a different opinion of the seperation of church and state. Here's the thing though mechmat... While there is seperation of church and state, all decisions the president, congress, the senate, your local sherrif, governor, or whoever makes.. Their religion, and morals may just have some persuation.. Here's the kicker.. WE THE PEOPLE are the ones who vote them into office. And part of the majority vote may be based on said officials morals and religion.. So in effect, we are responsible for putting them there. Personally, I hold in high respect Dubya's letting his religion persuade his decision. Ultimately, there are many ways seperation of church and state can be read. If WE THE PEOPLE are in disagreement, we will vote someone else into office, or petition the supreme courts.. :)

audiopro

09-10-2004, 05:00 PM

Further let me say this...

mechmat, I respect your right of opinion. And further respect you for voicing it, being you seem to be the lone voice of opposition here, it takes some fortitude. Myself and you have a different opinion, but I am glad you expressed yours, and glad we live in a country where such can be done in the first place...

Cheers for saying and standing up for what you believe, whether I agree with it or not.. ;)

mechmat

09-10-2004, 05:27 PM

No, it wasn't directed specifically at you audio, I apologize if it came off that way. I know that this country was founded by mostly Christians, but Thomas Jefferson was the one who implemented the seperation of church and state. And he probably did so to help solve issues like this.

Diva, don't feel sorry for me for not being a Christian. It makes me a better person. It allows me to accept people for what kind of person they are rather than how they spend their sunday mornings. Being shallow is thinking everyone who is not Christian is wrong. Judging people in such a narrow minded scope is bad for the country.

And as far as your arguement that gay is not ok, well, all I have to say is that gay is ok. That point can only be one of 2 things, a matter of opinion or a matter of religion, neither of which is an adequate basis for a law. And you're right, this particular issue does not affect the whole country, so it shouldn't even be any of your concern. If it only affects gay people, why don't we let them decide?

mechmat

09-10-2004, 05:34 PM

Thanks Audo, I appreciate it, and enjoy the fact that we can discuss such issue without being persecuted. And thanks for your participation also.

audiopro

09-10-2004, 05:42 PM

Thanks Audo, I appreciate it, and enjoy the fact that we can discuss such issue without being persecuted.

Or Tar and feathered!!!! Or worse, what we "Christians" did to so called witches... BURNED AT THE STAKE!!!

lol.. Heading home soon folks.. Everyone have a safe weekend.. DIVA!!!! Get ready now, look like we have another one on the way...

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 12:02 AM

I still remember the day when my bride walked down the aisle and became my wife, the overwhelming joy I felt and the love I still feel so many years later. For me, regardless of my personal beliefs, to support denying to others that which is the best of my life would be wrong.

audiopro

09-13-2004, 09:08 AM

Hmm.. Wow. Never thought of it like that before. Well said dags... That does make sense to me...

9balldiva

09-13-2004, 11:30 AM

Diva, don't feel sorry for me for not being a Christian. It makes me a better person. It allows me to accept people for what kind of person they are rather than how they spend their sunday mornings. Being shallow is thinking everyone who is not Christian is wrong. Judging people in such a narrow minded scope is bad for the country.

And as far as your arguement that gay is not ok, well, all I have to say is that gay is ok. That point can only be one of 2 things, a matter of opinion or a matter of religion, neither of which is an adequate basis for a law. And you're right, this particular issue does not affect the whole country, so it shouldn't even be any of your concern. If it only affects gay people, why don't we let them decide?

Let me set some thing straight. I'm not feeling sorry for, I am just sorry you feel that way. Also, I am not a devoted Christian myself. I don't go to church at all, and if I do it is VERY rare. I by no means am the person to judge someone on how they spend their Sunday mornings. I come from a stron Catholic background, however I do not practice it. I don't think everyone is wrong who isn't Christian, I think they have an opinion different from mine, and that is okay. I love to debate political topics, and it is never fun if you debate with someone who agrees with everything you say...like I said before, I don't dislike gay people, nor do I think they should be burned at the stake, or prosecuted, or criticized, etc. On the other hand, I do feel that gay isn't okay. I don't want my children growing up thinking this is how the world has alawys been. I guess my beleifs stem more from tradition, and how I was raised. Opinions make up the laws...it is how they all started. It just always depended solely on whether or not the Senate and the House agreed. Gay has not always been around, so why should Bush get to decide that it will be my children's generation that are exposed to it being "normal." It's a preference...and I prefer not to be a part of it.

I too, am glad we can debate this. I hope nothing I have said offends you personally. I like the fact that you are willing to voice your opposing opinion with everyone here.

9balldiva

09-13-2004, 11:36 AM

It's not being denied. Gays can have commitment ceremonies. My two gay friends did. They had a "wedding type" deal and all. I was the best man and maid of honor, and even though I did not agree with what they were doing, I wasn't going to abandon my best friends on the day they needed me most. I just don't beleive that Bush should legalize gay marriage, and allow them to get a license like hetero couples. It defeats the sacred practice of marriage. If two gays love one another that much, do they really need a piece of paper saying so...to prove to everyone else??

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 12:31 PM

If two gays love one another that much, do they really need a piece of paper saying so...

If that is all you feel a marriage is, just a piece of paper, then why do you object Diva?

9balldiva

09-13-2004, 01:20 PM

I don't personally feel that way...but I have heard many gays say "Well it's just a piece of paper" when the topic of them being denied the rights comes about. The two friends of mine have said it, some of their friends have....I just don't get it sometimes!

mechmat

09-13-2004, 04:05 PM

I'm by no means an expert on the history of gay people, but I do know that evidence of homosexuality has been around since at least ancient Rome, and it predates the bible. So for all intensive purposes, it has been around forever.

I don't know that further debate on this subject would do any good. There has been no legal, non-religious arguement presented against gay marriage. And if you believe that legal marriage is tied to religious marriage, there is really no way(that I know of anyway) to change someone's belief that it is morally wrong and should not be accepted in our community. I believe continued debate on the subject would just keep sending us in circles.

The reason I even mentioned the subject was because I don't believe laws or any governmental decisions should be based on religious beliefs. When you do so, you alienate a huge segment of the population in our country and the world. Many wars have been fought based on nothing but religious differences. The men who hijacked the planes on 9-11 could had to believe that our country was a threat to the Islamic religion and that they would be accepted and revered in heaven if they attacked us. The only way to fight that is to prove to the rest of the Islamic community that we are no threat to them and these people had no basis for their attack. When the president makes decisions based on his religious beliefs, he reinforces in the Islamic community that we are a Christian country, and inflame thier hatred of us.

I don't know if it's true because I haven't looked into it that much, but it has been reported that Bush said that God told him to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. When you say things like this, you alienate everyone who is not Christian and everyone who doesn't believe this should be about religion. You help them forget that this was an unprovoked, baseless attack, and reinforce in the minds of much of the Islamic community that this is a war over religion.

audiopro

09-13-2004, 04:30 PM

But mechmat, dont you know such laws against murder, theft, adultery, etc. are based on the ten commandments in the bible? If not the morals set forth by the bible, we would not have such laws.. So there is error in that idea. From a Christian viewpoint, none of those would be morally wrong if not for the bible anyways...

mechmat

09-13-2004, 04:41 PM

9balldiva

09-13-2004, 04:46 PM

Mechmat: I'm by no means an expert on the history of gay people, but I do know that evidence of homosexuality has been around since at least ancient Rome, and it predates the bible. So for all intensive purposes, it has been around forever.

It does go back to ancient Rome, but if you read about homosexuals in ancient times you will find that it was highly looked down upon. Back then they beleived that being gay was a mental disorder. They used to practice trephinism, exorcism, and torture on homosexuals. Some thought that if a hole was drilled into their skull where these type of thoughts were in the brain, then the feelings and thoughts would escape. And they did, but only because it left many of the homosexuals paralized. When you destroy certain parts of the brain, it also destroys other everyday functions you have. Bottom line, the history of homosexuals was 50 times worse than it is today. It wasn't until after the 1950's that more gays started to come out of the closet. Homosexuality was thought of as a sexual deviation by mental health professionals. As time progressed, and states were developed, homosexuality was considered a criminal act in most US states...and it wasn't until 2001 that ALL major professional organizations described homosexuality as being a fixed sexual orientation, normal, and natural. So, it did go back in times, but it was never completely considered part of a norm until 2001. Obviously, by this evidence...gay is not okay, and is not normal.

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 04:51 PM

I have heard his speeches where Bush purports to know what God's plan for America is.

The following are verses from the scripture that you are unlikely to hear Bush utter.

John 3:17: How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother and sister in need and yet refuses to help?

Acts 2:44-47: All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Luke 14:12-14: He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

Mark 10:25: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God.

But perhaps Bush, and many other politicians, read a different bible than I was raised with.

The history of the world is rife with examples of leaders who claimed to be carrying out God's will when their actions flied in the face of the teachings of their religion.

audiopro

09-13-2004, 04:55 PM

Well, adultery is not illegal, and murder and theft can be rationalized without any biblical references. And I believe that it is safe to say that just about any religion would promote those same values. I also believe that any rational, intelligent person in this day and age would be able to decide for themselves the difference between right and wrong.

Adultery is illegal actually to some extents in many states. What I would like for you to do though is present me with some rationalization that is not biblical for making murder and theft wrong.. In this day and age we ARE able to make the distinction, but that is because of morals started many moons ago by various religions. And yes, most do agree that is wrong.. However, us as humans did not just wake up one day and say, it is wrong to kill or wrong to steal... Prove to me that this is the case, or at least provide some sort of historical evidence. I dont think you will find one more convincing than that of religion giving us a basis for our morals..

At least in this country, many of our founding morals were based on religion. While common sense told our founding fathers that murder was wrong, it was the Bible that solidified that and it was the ancestral passing down of those morals that shaped them that way to begin with.

Like it or not, this country, as well many others, shaped their laws on their religious beliefs. Think of the many countries that make special provisions for worshiping during the days in their law...

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 05:10 PM

dont you know such laws against murder, theft, adultery, etc. are based on the ten commandments in the bible

Another one of those misconceptions that has been repeated so often that it is accepted as the truth. Our laws have their roots in English common law. English common law dates back to the 5th century in England 200 years before Christianity was introduced to England. So while our laws may be compared to teachings of various religions their origin is wholly secular in nature and it is incorrect to say that they were founded on Christian teachings.

audiopro

09-13-2004, 05:13 PM

audiopro

09-13-2004, 05:17 PM

dags, I have to disagree.. While the origins may not be solely derived from Christin religion, the founders of this country were very active members in their church. And you will be hard pressed to convince me that when this country was started, their religious morals did not have influence...

As for English common law.. Where did it's origins come from? While may not be Christianity, how do you know it was not based on some sort of religion. I will research the subject further, but I would be willing to bet common law was based on something more than some guy just thinking things up in his head in a secular motion.. I could be wrong though... I'll look into such..

audiopro

09-13-2004, 05:28 PM

It is interesting in reading on the subject... So far I am seeing that it is commonly believed that English Common Law was modeled after that of Roman Law. Stating the structure is similiar. While many things were changed the design structure remained quite the same. Many papers go on to state that Roman Law had influence by the Roman church.

Still reading though, just wanted to share that...

Fun to research this stuff. Here is a good informational page. Be prepared for a lot of reading.. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv2-76

In retrospect I will say this.. Such a subjects have been debated by scholars greater than I. Likely greater than most of us here.. And they still can not agree on many aspects.. lol.. I dont think we are going to find the secret here... If we do, we'll be rich I tell you!!!!!! But seriously, maybe we should find something we can argue that has as a solution... Like....

Who makes the absolute best pool cues...??? Oh no...

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 06:21 PM

It is possible that people can arrive at the same conclusions while coming from different directions. And I find it very believable that people could accept that killing and stealing are wrong without a church to tell them that it is.

There are many references in the writings of the founding fathers as to English common law being the base for our laws. I do not doubt that had their opinions been different we may have had a different set of laws. It is a fact that our founding fathers believed so strongly in keeping religion out of the affairs of state that they gave us the little amendment saying "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" One cannot know for sure what they were thinking, but they found that sentence to be important enough to be the first sentence of the first amendment of the Bill of Rights.

mechmat

09-13-2004, 06:24 PM

Who makes the absolute best pool cues...??? Oh no...

Predator!!! lol

I found out that the company who owns the cuecomponents.com website that floats around here every once in awhile is located in Las Vegas and gives cuemaking lessons, so hopefully someday the best cues will be the ones I make! :)

dags_lax

09-13-2004, 06:29 PM

As for the best pool cue, last time I played God he was bragging up his Schon. Oops …. I mean her Schon. Sorry about that Diva. :lol:

audiopro

09-13-2004, 07:00 PM

As for the best pool cue, last time I played God he was bragging up his Schon. Oops …. I mean her Schon. Sorry about that Diva. :lol:

ha ha ha!! That was great! And a smiley by dags to top it off!!

I'm going to have to put my vote in for.... Well, I really like my Nitti.. But I guess the best playing cue of all time for me is still my dads 20 year old Meucci...

Okay, here's another.. GM vs. Ford??? No no.. Import vs Domestic... Thats better!

DZ314

09-14-2004, 09:51 AM

Import! Ahahahaha! Oops, I am in trouble now. :lol:

audiopro

09-14-2004, 09:53 AM

I knew you would be voting for such Fury! At least yours has a turbo, that makes a good bit of difference.. Let me guess Deathron's choice... Domestic Ford!!!

Oh yeah dags.. By the way.. Who won that game between you and God? ;)

DZ314

09-14-2004, 09:54 AM

I had to do it! DEATHTRON has a bad ass classic stang, I think you are right about his feeling on this issue. :D

dags_lax

09-14-2004, 11:23 AM

Oh yeah dags.. By the way.. Who won that game between you and God?

I asked for a spot and got the seven ball and the break. I asked, but God didn't want to play for anything, not even a beer. God told me that he didn't really approve of gambling and drinking. Now I found that kind of strange because at the church softball tournaments we used to waste all our money on tip boards and drink lots of beer.

Anyway I started out doing okay, running a lot of racks, which I needed to do because GOD RUNS OUT EVERY TRIP TO THE TABLE! We were playing a best of three set with races to eleven. I got up on him in the first race six to five when the Lord said something about vengeance being his. After I got up on him nine to seven (still the first set) he asked me, in an off hand sort of way, if Wisconsin has ever had three hurricanes in one season. I told him we don't have hurricanes in Wisconsin and then he gave me this really goofy, sh*t eating grin as I was heading back to the table for the break.

Now I have never been in a hurricane. Never want to be in one. Never even want to be within a thousand miles of one. But that grin got me thinking, If this guy can give Florida three hurricanes one season (don't know what you did Greg, but you sure pissed God off) he could just as well put a few in Wisconsin. I didn't think it would ever happen to me but I was sharked. My game went straight to hell, figuratively speaking that is. I never won another rack!

After the match I told God that he has the strongest game that I had ever seen. He just kind of shrugged his shoulders and in a humble sort of way, and said he could be better but he keeps pretty busy during the week and the only time he gets to shoot is on Sundays, his day off. God also told me that his son can give him a good game and that Moses isn't to shabby either as the pockets seem to part wide open for him. When I asked who the absolute best player is God told me the absolute best player, bar none, is Mary. I asked God how come Mary was so good. He told me that very early on in her life Mary decided remain a virgin. Instead of spending all the time and energy that other people put into trying to get lucky, she was going to put toward her game.

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 11:27 AM

Diva... On the flip side though, almost every Pharaoh of ancient Egypt participated in homosexual activity... Now if people in such high power participated in such an act, and went unpunished or persecuted for it, what does that mean?

There will be cases for both sides, and it is typically difficult to convince the opposing party their point of view is wrong, either way...

What I wrote about was practiced here in the US. Scientists, Psychologists, Doctors of the United States, England, and many other countries believed and practiced what i wrote about. Egyptian views have nothing to do with ours. Bush doesn't present laws based on Egypt...he bases them on overall principles...and overall homosexuality was not viewed as normal.

audiopro

09-14-2004, 11:29 AM

dags, that is the funniest thing I've read in a while! Very creative.. I will have to share this story with some friends!!!

dags_lax

09-14-2004, 11:31 AM

Who said it was a story?

audiopro

09-14-2004, 11:35 AM

Err.. I meant to say:

A Factual Story Based on Actual Historical Events... Coming soon to a theatre to you. This film is not yet rated.

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 11:35 AM

Best cue: Personally, I love my Predator. On the flip side, I haven't played with many other brands. I did however get the chance to test a new line of cues this past weekend. A guy who used to work for Predator, and the founder of Predator have joined together to create a twist to Predator. The butt is 12 piece and you absolutely CANNOT dent or ding this butt. I tried. It comes with a Predator shaft, and it hits GOOD!

Domestic!!! I love my domestic chevy, and my domestic beer!!

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 11:37 AM

Dags, will you be giving out free tickets to the Seybert's crew???

audiopro

09-14-2004, 11:40 AM

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 11:58 AM

Sounds like a Predator 2???

http://www.predatorcues.com/english/P2illustration.jpg

P2 is a 10 piece butt, and trust me, you can ding a P2. This is a 12 piece. These guys are guaranteeing (for life) the dent proof durability. If it gets dinged they will either refund your money, or replace it for free. They also guarantee against warping. The place they make them is in Daytona, and I think he welcomes people to come tour the place. The name of his company is Platinum Billiards (based in Jax), and I think they are naming the cue "The Titan" or "Titus" (????). Let me do some research with him, and I'll see if I can't give you a link to look at them!

audiopro

09-14-2004, 12:04 PM

That would be cool Diva! And being a few minutes outside Daytona, I would love to visit and see what they are about.. Is this a collaberative effort with Predator, or a seperate venture?

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 12:11 PM

It is separate. This guy usd to work for Predator, and there were problems, so he created his own billiard supply shop. The founder of Predator has retired/moved on/quit (???not real sure what???), and has teamed up with the ex-Predator employee, and created this new cue. I'm sure it is high quality.

Have you seen this cue:
http://www.predatorcues.com/english/P2LC.htm

The look is similar, but because it's 12 piece, it is divisible by 2,3,4,6, and 12...so, you can make color combinations with that many different colors. The one I shot with was all one color...and it was a darker wood. It was beatiful. They will be making (Deb will like this too) a PINK cue...and just about any other color you can think of!

9balldiva

09-14-2004, 12:14 PM

What's your email address Greg...I'll email to you what Kenneth (the guy who once worked at Pred.) just emailed me...better yet I'll post it:

Christina,

Thanks for the email. The website is under construction and should be
live by the end of this month. The domain is www.tituscues.com as Steve
Titus is the person building the cues (That domain currently points to
www.platinumbilliards.com which is our online store)

The butts are 12 piece and will not dent and will not warp. Both are
guaranteed for life. The shaft is a Predator 314 shaft with a Moori tip.
The cues will probably retail for $850 and will be sold online and
direct to players in Jacksonville for $680 (20% off)

I do not have any pictures yet as Steve still has more cues to finish
that will need to be photographed, you will however, be able to see the
cues at Bank Shot Billiards most nights as I will be there probably
every evening from 8pm to 12am

If you happen to be there, just ask for me and I would love to show you
the cues.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,

Shane Sinnott
Platinum Billiards
We Test, You Compare
www.platinumbilliards.com
Toll Free: 888.612.POOL (7665)
International: 904.220.8138