So, how long has it taken you to adjust to your 314?

[DEATHTRON]

I have had my Predator SPWU for about a month now and after playing with it nightly i think i am just now getting used to the way it plays. After the first few times i played with it i felt like trashing it.

So for those of you with Predator shafts, how long did it take you to get used to it?

Zach

[skor]

It took me couple of weeks, I had to learn to adjust to it alone because when I got it predator was not that known or popular, that was in 1998, not a lot of people knew back then what is deflection, we just knew that you have to compensate when aiming with side english, Internet was not that accessible or popular either, so access to information was limited.
People did not anderstand why I paid over $400 for a plain looking cue that came with only one shaft, but when I got the hang of it and showed them that you don't need to compenste any more and that you can be more accurate with it, they all wanted to try it.... :)

[maughanm]

For some reason, it didn't take me but a couple of days......but when I bought mine I had just started playing after laying off the game for years...I'm sure that had a lot to do with it....mike

[CJK]

I was shooting fairly well with it within a half hour. I think I'm still learning all the things it'll do better than other shafts, and I've had it about a year now.

[dags_lax]

Just to let you know a few players never adjust to the Predator. I played with a 314 shaft exclusively for a year on my Schon and never got to the point where I could play as well with the 314 as my standard Schon. I also have a 314 shaft for my Jackson and used to have a regular Predator which I sold. I know a few other shooters, who went back to their regular shaft because for them, their game was better without the 314 shaft.

[skor]

a lot of the "old school" players can't adjust to the predator shafts, Efren Reyes is one of them, I guess you can't teach old dogs to do new tricks... :)

(Dags, I was not reffering to you, nothing personal :) )

[mechmat]

I never used side spin before I got my 3k1 because I could never tell where the hell the ball was going, so I'm going to say it took me about 1 minute.

[DEATHTRON]

I was having trouble with aiming too far off the center of the cue ball, with my duffering i could just about go to the edge of the ball and pocket it, but with the predator i dont have to go nearly as much.

Zach

[dags_lax]

Quote:
a lot of the "old school" players can't adjust to the predator shafts


Skor: You may be right about that. The players that I know that are indifferent or don't like the Predator shafts are seasoned players who have been playing at a fairly high level for 20 years or better.

As long as you didn't say "you can't teach old dags new tricks" no offense taken. :lol: (That smiley thingy is for you Greg.)

[audiopro]

Thanks dags! Glad to know you're thinking about me...

I too gave the Predator a try for a while, although not quite a year. It is a well made shaft, but it just didn't do much for me. Previous to using it I think I just developed a good feel for how to compensate for the deflection. I took a leave of absence from the game for a few years and when I came back (recently) is when I gave Predator a shot. I felt more comfortable and confident when using the regular shaft I was accustomed to.

I have always worked a lot with my hands. Mechanics, woodworking, martial arts, etc. Quite honestly I think I have always had a natural ability to do things based on feel really well. I am sure that plays a bit of a role in my game play...

[poolguy123]

First - sorry to be dredging up all these old topics- but hey I just arrived at this forum and there's lots of interesting things to read about and flap my gums on :)

I immediately appreciated the "lower" deflection/squirt of the 314 when I got it. Less compensation meant more accuracy. After about a year and a half I still sometimes forget that is has LESS deflection, not NO deflection.
It does still require some compensation, even more on certain high english long hard shots.

I would never go back to my old shaft- that thing had wicked squirt characteristics :cry:

[sanj]

I agree that the 314 has less deflection.
In terms of deflection I think that the Z shaft has even less and it is quite difficult to adjust from the 314 to the Z.

[DZ314]

I adjusted to my 314 after about 2 weeks, at first it felt very different. I could see and feel the shaft bending, now it is natural! 8)

[sanj]

have you tried the Z shaft.

[DZ314]

have you tried the Z shaft.

Nope, not yet.

[sanj]

I used a 314 for two years then went back to my schon.
I know what a 314 can do and am fairly confident with it.
I tried a Z for a week. It is very different from a 314.It took a while to adjust to it.

[skor]

Why did you go back to the Schon ?

[sanj]

I went back to the schon as I was more consistant and ran out more.
It is as simple as that. I enjoyed the 314 but felt I had better feedback with the Schon especially with short touch shots and for the close game.
With the schon i knew that I would draw back an inch ,two inches or three inches every time.I felt I could move the ball more precisely due to the feel and feedback.
The predator did not have that,but it was easier to pot balls with sidespin.
That was the main reason. I tried it for two seasons and certainly my game improved,but the schon was much better for close stun,slight draw,drag and soft shots.

[paulfr]

I have a question never having hit with a low deflection shaft like the 314.

With my ordinary $300 cue, I get a little more than a ball's width of deflection with a hard hit and 1.5 tips over 7.5 diamonds of distance.
About how much would you get under these conditions with a 314 ???

Thanks

[skor]

with a hard hit ? - none !!!
If I place the cue ball on the spot and shoot it to the center of the far rail with with side spin, keeping the cue parallel to the path that I want the cue ball to take, with a hard shot I will hit the rail right on the center diamond.

I've done this shot many time while comparing deflection between my 314 and other shafts.

[dags_lax]

Predator doesn't claim that their shafts have no deflection but that they reduce deflection. Check out this link and it not only confirms Predators claims of reduced deflection but also quantifies the amount of deflection for the Predator and other shafts.

http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

What the numbers show is that while deflection is reduced it is still significant enough that it needs to be accounted for. This backs up my own observations from the use of the Predator products I own.

[paulfr]

dags
Thank you very much for the data.
I think for now I will just stay with
center ball for long hard/med shots.

Happy Holidays to all !!

paul

[dags_lax]

Center ball, draw, and follow. Combine that with speed control and the your need to use english can be greatly reduced. Like Skor said in one of his postings to the effect that, many think that they can control english but they can't. I agree with that 100% Pros and accomplished amateurs may be able to rely on their ability to control side spin but for most of us mere mortals, my self included, the use english is hit and miss at best. Personally, If I am going to get myself in trouble, more often than not it comes on shots when I need to strike the cue ball on the horizontal as opposed to the vertical axis.

[audiopro]

I would add draw to the hit or miss in many cases... Personally I like a center ball hit, and sometimes some follow. Draw is very unpredictable, and side, can be even worse.

My game is to the point now, that given a decent spread... It is rare I can not run out, with using only center or top hit on the cue ball. About the only times I will use side, is when I am very confident it will yield the desired results.

By the way, I play 8-ball usually, not 9. Running out an 8-ball rack, is typically easier than a 9-ball rack... :)

with any pred shaft 314,z you need to learn to compensate for more engilsh (especially with the z) what helped me was using a tips width of english insted of a whole tip. neil told me this himself.

[paulfr]

Yes, I do not use spin unless it is necessary for position. I have just started with 9 ball this year having been a 14.1 player as a kid. It is not easy to find a rack where you don't find 1 or 2 shots that require English to get the needed shape to run out.
And from a distance, CB and OB deflection drive me nuts. It is just too risky for me now without putting in a lot of hours of practice to know my cue and what the ball will do vs tip and speed.

[sonnic]

Well first of all that is an awsome site so thank you goes out to dags.

I cannot believe that Schon is so far to the bottom! I thought they would be up their, but wow. also it interests me why Mezz & Scorpion Break cues have such a high deflection rate when the Predator BK cue is at the top of the list.

Now i know that different cues work for different players but one has to be better than the other. Just my thought is that the lower the deflection the better your aim and controll would be.

Also surprising is 5820 and Action cues are at the top of the list. What is going on here???????????????

Overall except for predator being a top the list I am very surprised at the rest.

[dags_lax]

You need to realize Sonnic that those tests are just measuring deflection. Whether I need to adjust my aim by an 1.25" for a Predator or 1.5" for my Schon I still need to adjust and I feel that I am able to so equally with either product. Also I tend to keep my use of english to a minimum so for the majority of my shots cue ball deflection is not a concern. Because I due as well (or poorly) adjusting for cue ball deflection with either product I feel that the greater control I get with my Schon isn't worth giving up for the reduced deflection of the Predator. At least for me.

[GTH]

I bought a Predator 3 years ago and still don't like it. I normally shoot with a 20 oz Joss. Every once in awhile I take the Predator out and try again. Nope, no luck it still feels like a broomstick in my hands. The only reason I bought it initially was that my old friend Steve Titus of Ann Arbor, Mich. was the inventor of same. The shaft makes good engineering sense, but to me it just doesn't provide the feedback that I need to play the game well. Needless to say I have been playing the game for many many years.

GTH

[LWW]

1 rack.

LWW

[ghostdawg]

i use a scorpion cue, which i bought for $150 bucks what difference would a expensive cue bring to my game. i feel that its not the cue rather the shooter.

[LWW]

Ultimately you are correct, however the less calculation for deflection that needs to be done the more the player can concentrate on the shot itself.

LWW

[ghostdawg]

this is what i mean.. can you really tell when deflection happens due to a cue.when i miss certain shots specially when applying english i think its my stroke or aim not the cue itself

[LWW]

Is it easier to make a shot if you have to adjust for 1/16" or 9/16" of deflection?

LWW

[dags_lax]

Is it easier to make a shot if you have to adjust for 1/16" or 9/16" of deflection?

The adjustment is more like 1.25" or 1.5". The example Larry gives is a factor of 9 where in reality it is a factor of about .2.

And if you carry that on to the Z shaft, and figure in that you can generate as much or more english hitting closer to the center of the cb you eliminate that much more deflection. With most conventional shafts and with the 314, I found that the maximum area to apply english is about the diameter of a quarter. With the Z-shaft I find that I can get the same amount of english hitting in an area about the size of a nickel or smaller. Wether this is due to the shaft construction, tip diameter, ferrule material or length,or shaft taper I'm not sure. My point being that anytime you can keep your hit closer to the center of the cb, using english or not, you will automatically have less deflection regardless of the shaft you are using.

Anyway, I adapted to the Z-shaft almost immediately. I tried the 314 for a week or two first and the amount of deflection reduction wasn't that noticeable to me. The Z offered the amount or the lack of compensation I was expecting out of the 314. It mostly depends on personal preference, but the more I shoot with the Z the more I like it.

[nathar]

And if you carry that on to the Z shaft, and figure in that you can generate as much or more english hitting closer to the center of the cb you eliminate that much more deflection. With most conventional shafts and with the 314, I found that the maximum area to apply english is about the diameter of a quarter. With the Z-shaft I find that I can get the same amount of english hitting in an area about the size of a nickel or smaller. Wether this is due to the shaft construction, tip diameter, ferrule material or length,or shaft taper I'm not sure. My point being that anytime you can keep your hit closer to the center of the cb, using english or not, you will automatically have less deflection regardless of the shaft you are using.

Anyway, I adapted to the Z-shaft almost immediately. I tried the 314 for a week or two first and the amount of deflection reduction wasn't that noticeable to me. The Z offered the amount or the lack of compensation I was expecting out of the 314. It mostly depends on personal preference, but the more I shoot with the Z the more I like it.

That was me, forgot to log on, oops :oops:

[ghostdawg]

im still a bit confused on all this deflection talk....

[nathar]

Alright, I'm goin to take a stab at this. If I get it wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

OK, here's an analogy. When the cue ball hits an object ball straight on with no spin, the object ball continues on in a straight line. Well, if the cue ball hits the object ball a little to the left, the object ball will travel to the right. The same principle applies (if my thinking is right) when your cue strikes the cue ball. If you hit the left side of the cue ball applying left english, then the cue ball will "deflect" to the right. Meaning that you will have to compensate by moving your aim point to the left of where you would normally aim if hitting center cue ball.

That's about as simple of an example as I can come up with. Anybody want to help out?

[ghostdawg]

well that sounds logical. but how can a more expensive cue differ from my 150 dollar cue. if a deflection happens, for me it would seem imposible to know exactly where it was , stroke, aim, deflection on the object ball etc i guess i just cant tell when the cue is the one deflecting . :?

[ghostdawg]

"BOY YOU'RE A POOL SHARK, A REAL POOL SHARK"

[skor]

well that sounds logical. but how can a more expensive cue differ from my 150 dollar cue. if a deflection happens, for me it would seem imposible to know exactly where it was , stroke, aim, deflection on the object ball etc i guess i just cant tell when the cue is the one deflecting . :?

Cue ball deflection or squirt (how it should really be called) will occur when applying side spin (english) with any cue at any time regardless of it's brand and it's costs, the difference between cues (or shafts to be more precise) is that different shafts will have a different amount of squirt, some high-tech shafts (like predator) will have less squirt then the "old school" one piece shafts.
Density of the wood will change the weight of the shaft that will change the amount of squirt, the flexibility of the wood, the taper and the ferrule material, size and weight are also factors.
The further away from the center you hit, the more squirt !!!
The closer you stay to the center - the more accurate you'll be, the more action you'll get from the cue ball (because most of the energy will go to the cue ball).

From your post, I assume that your level of play is at a beginner level, the best advice that I can give you is that for now do not use side spin, hit only on the vertical axis of the cue ball, work on you aim, stroke and speed control, you could get the cue ball to almost any place on the table without using side spin, side spin should be use only to finesse a shot and it sounds like you are not ready for that yet.

[ghostdawg]

thanx man its a bit clearer now. and yeah i just started playing, bout a year now. i got so addicted i had to go out and buy a pool table.

[LWW]

Let me add in one benefit of the 314 that doesn't get talked about much.

It is virtually impossible to make a dead center hit on the CB consistently. I don't care how good anyone thinks they are, they can't do it. Evenn if you are off center 1 MM in your contact point you have added some sidespin. Now on a long straight shot that doesn't matter, but on a long cut shot it may make the difference between going in and hitting a pocket cornerpoint and rattling out.

LWW

[skor]

1mm off center is a lot of spin!!!
on a long straight shot you might miss it if there is a 1mm side spin that you don't know about.
If you practice hitting only the center of the cue ball then you can get to a high level of play, if you forget pool for one moment and think about snooker where the pockets are really tight and you have to make the ball from the center of the pocket, if you had 1mm of side spin on these little balls then you can't pocket any balls, same goes to the game of pyramid (a game that is played on a 12ft table with tight pockets and balls that are bigger the pool balls), now a pro pool players "sees" more "points of entrance" to the pocket the us amateurs in order to get the desired shape, if a pro player would put 1mm side spin without knowing it then he wouldn't become a pro.
Finding the center of the cue ball is hard but it's possible to hit it with consistency, Predator may be more forgiving in some shot, but will punish you on other shots

[LWW]

.04 inches, and I honestly don't believe that most people can hit dead center on the CB with that much accuracy.

LWW

[skor]

can you..... ??

look at the diagram and then answer the questions





Think that this table has tight pockets, can you...
1. pocket the OB (blue) in pocket A and make the CB stop on the spot? if you can then you hit it dead center, can you do it 10 out of 10, a pro can!

2. Can you pocket the OB in poket A and cause the CB to follow it into the pocket (both balls enter the pocket at the center of the pocket)? if you can the you did hit the CB with no side spin, can you do it 10 out of 10?, a pro can!

3. Can you pocket the OB in pocket A (entering from the center) and draw the CB into pocket B (entering from the center of the pocket)?, if you can then again there was no side spin!, can you do it 10 out of 10? a pro can.

These 3 simple drills will help you find the center axis of the CB, if you can make these 3 shots 10 out of 10 every time (after a warm up) then you found the center of the cue ball, and trust me that with practice you will be able to make it.

[skor]

Here is another drill that you might know:
Place the CB on the head spot, and shoot it to go through the foot spot, hit the far cushion and make it come back in a straight line to the head spot.
If you can do it then you've hit it with no side spin, since this is a long shot the smallest amount of side spin will cause the CB to miss the head spot on the way back.
A pro can do it 10 out 10 times and so could you with some practice :!:

GOOD LUCK 8)

[StB]

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but on the side pocket drill, 10 out 10 times I can scratch the cue.

I know its bad that I can't stop it dead but 1 time out of 10.

On the long rail shot I'm roughly averaging about 2 out of 10...and even managed to scratch once (just kidding).

[LWW]

Skor, .04 inches won't stop someone from stopping a ball on a 2 inch circle on a 2 foot shot. In fact .04 inches won't even put a sidespin on the CB, but more of a very slight side wobble.

I don't believe that a pro can stop the CB within .04 inches 10 of 10 times. On a short shot as you describe it's not enough difference to become an issue. On an 8' shot however it could be huge.

If you use Platinum Billiards chart they use 6MM and 12MM (avg 9MM) and get deflection of 1.37" average on a 50 inch shot. Over 8' that would be about 5.5 inches of deflection with a 9MM off center hit. Missing by 1MM here would still put you off about .6". That's why an 8' cut shot is often missed.

Your analogy is about a 2' shot and a 9MM off center hit would only deflect about 0.34" so a .04" offcenter would amount to less than .04" of deflection...or approaching nothing.

An amount that is insignificant at short range becomes devastating at long range. If I remember my math correctly you would get 4 times the deflection if you double the distance.

I'm not saying that people on the pro tour don't shoot with higher accuracy than I do, but they aren't perfect either.

As another example, I am a pretty good target shot with a pistol. On an indoor range at 25 yards I can put 9 out of 10 inside the X ring, but I can't put them all through the same bullet hole.

My initial point, perhaps not explained well enough, is that no matter how good anyone is they do not hit the ball in the EXACT same spot every time and that any deviation from perfection induces some sideways motion and anything which reduces unintentional side motion, however small, is a good thing.

LWW

[skor]

with no offense, I think you read too much....
when you shoot pool at the pool hall with friends or in a tournament, you can't bring measurement tool with you in order to calculate deflection or what ever....
BUT what you can do is, if you have a hard shot and you know that if you'll shoot it without side spin then the chance of making the shot is higher and you know that you can shoot a straight shot with no spin, then you might make more balls...

I know that no one is perfect and that you can't hit the same exact shot twice but you can get very very close.

[LWW]

Well I tried the side pocket stop shot and stopped it with the space the ball 24 of 21 times...but I'm sure that there was a side to side varisance of .25" or so in both directions.

I also tried drawing the CB back to scratch in the other side and got 29 of 45...but again they didn't all split the pocket perfectly dead center.

On the table legth shot I can have the CB return to the cue tip pretty consistently...but very seldom will it return to exact dead center.

LWW

[audiopro]

As another example, I am a pretty good target shot with a pistol. On an indoor range at 25 yards I can put 9 out of 10 inside the X ring, but I can't put them all through the same bullet hole.

LWW

You can't!? Damn you must suck!! I can put them all through the same initial bullet hole at 75+ yards with my regular sidearm Glock 26... :wink:

Left hand, standing on one foot, jumping up and down, even...

[StB]

Note to self, don't piss off Greg.

[LWW]

How do you like the Glock?

I've thought about getting one a few times.

Right now I'm torn between a Springfield Armory 1911 CQB and a H & K USP and an AR-15 pistol.

Right noe I have 2 Sig Sauers, 1 Ruger, 1 Iver Johnson, 1 Kimber 1911, and a Colt Python.

LWW

[nathar]

Para Ordinance baby. P-13 :twisted:

[nathar]

Your analogy is about a 2' shot and a 9MM off center hit would only deflect about 0.34" so a .04" offcenter would amount to less than .04" of deflection...or approaching nothing.

LWW

But even on a 2' shot, using 9mm of side spin won't even leave you close to the line of the shot. 9mm - we're talking almost maximum english. Or at least, practically speaking in most shooting situations, maximum english. With a good straight stroke and follow through, shooting a straight in shot along either the bottom or top rail, I can usually get the cb about a foot or more off the rail without hitting a rail with the cb with a med to med hard stroke with that kind of english. So I believe what Skor was saying is that if you hit off center with a good stroke, then the cb isn't going to just stop in line after contact with the ob.

I'm coming in on this one a little late, so if I completely missed the basis of this discussion I apologise. :wink:

[audiopro]

How do you like the Glock?

I've thought about getting one a few times.

Right now I'm torn between a Springfield Armory 1911 CQB and a H & K USP and an AR-15 pistol.

Right noe I have 2 Sig Sauers, 1 Ruger, 1 Iver Johnson, 1 Kimber 1911, and a Colt Python.

LWW

My Glock 26 is my current carry weapon.

I started out with an HK USP and I have to say that it is superior to any other handgun I've owned. That said, it is also a brick, no... A cinder block! Just a bit to bulky for daily carry... So I then purchased an HK USP Compact. After about a month, I decided it was still a bit of a brick. A great weapon, bullet proof (pun intended), but just to big for concealed carry...

Enter the Glock line of weaponry. I started out with a Glock 19, 9mm... Excellent size, and a damn well built weapon... However, I still wanted something smaller... Enter the Glock 26... I found my perfect concealed carry weapon. Small, reliable.. Damn reliable actually... And best of all.. NO SAFETY!!!! When you pull the trigger of a Glock, it is going to shoot... You do not have to worry about fumbling with a safety in the heat of a moment. And yes, I've been in that situation... Twice unfortunately.. But that's another post....

For concealed carry, my Glock 26 is perfect... For home defense, the firearm that sits on my nightstand at the ready.... My Original HK USP .45 ACP with a Surefire (www.surefire.com) tactical light attached...

Different guns serve a different purpose, obviously.. I'm sure you already are very aware of that... But to close, I do not think there is a better carry weapon than a subcompact Glock, like the 26... And for Home Defense, The HK USP is just right... However, I would love to get my hands on the SOCOM USP... Additonally, next on my list is an HK PSG-1...

[skor]

Are you guys going to war ????

[nathar]

Firearms in the hands of the law abiding public serves three major purposes.
1. Acts as a deterrant for violent criminals.
2. Provides for self defense rather than depending on a reactive (rather than proactive) police force.
3. Firearms in the hands of the law abiding public keeps a democratic republic a democratic republic.

This is why all Americans should oppose any form of blanket gun control legislation. If you ban guns, then the only people that will have them will be Govco. and the criminals. Which leaves the rest of us with knives and fists. I'd rather have a gun.


Are you guys going to war ????
Depends on your definition of war.

[audiopro]

Are you guys going to war ????

Yes!!

Thumb war!!! Ready??? Begin!!!

One Two Three Four, I declare THUMB WAR!!!! 8)

[skor]

Firearms in the hands of the law abiding public serves three major purposes.
1. Acts as a deterrant for violent criminals.
2. Provides for self defense rather than depending on a reactive (rather than proactive) police force.
3. Firearms in the hands of the law abiding public keeps a democratic republic a democratic republic.

This is why all Americans should oppose any form of blanket gun control legislation. If you ban guns, then the only people that will have them will be Govco. and the criminals. Which leaves the rest of us with knives and fists. I'd rather have a gun.


Are you guys going to war ????
Depends on your definition of war.


I'm not going to start the gun issue all over again, you can search the history of this forum and read all about it.

Let's say that you are right, why do you need more then one gun???
why do you need 3 or 4 for self defence etc.

How about a law that restrict the people for just one gun at a time?
I don't think that you or anyone else with the same opinions like yours would oppose this law, unless these are not the real reasons or not all of them....

Mind you that were I come from, guns are quite common although you need a permit to own a gun and it's not easy to get one (self defence at home is not a good enough reason to get one... ) the reality over here is not like in the U.S (not even after 9/11), I had to carry a gun for 3 years and even had to use it (army), so I guess I know a thing or two about guns and what they can do to you.
Now days I'm restricting my battles to the pool tables and my choice of wepons are usualy made of wood and some leather....
make life much nicer... 8)

[LWW]

I don't think that you or anyone else with the same opinions like yours would oppose this law, unless these are not the real reasons or not all of them.... I would oppose it because it violates our constitution.

I have several for a few reasons:

1-Home defense.
2-I competitively target shoot which requires multiple calibers.
3-I also collect them.

and I don't want to make it political either other than to say our founders wrote the 2nd amendment because they had witnessed the tyranny of British rule.

I have often wondered how far Hitler would have got had the average German met the Gestapo at the front door with armed resistance.

LWW

[LWW]

I don't think that you or anyone else with the same opinions like yours would oppose this law, unless these are not the real reasons or not all of them.... I would oppose it because it violates our constitution.

I have several for a few reasons:

1-Home defense.
2-I competitively target shoot which requires multiple calibers.
3-I also collect them.

and I don't want to make it political either other than to say our founders wrote the 2nd amendment because they had witnessed the tyranny of British rule.

I have often wondered how far Hitler would have got had the average German met the Gestapo at the front door with armed resistance.

LWW

[skor]

1. For the sport of target shooting (with a hand gun) there is a spcial gun, you don't use a regular gun for that.

2. As for home defence, it is known that homes that had guns in them or belived to have guns in them were broken into more the homes without guns.

3. the American constitution was written over 200 years ago and I guess it needs an update....

[audiopro]

1. For the sport of target shooting (with a hand gun) there is a spcial gun, you don't use a regular gun for that.

2. As for home defence, it is known that homes that had guns in them or belived to have guns in them were broken into more the homes without guns.

3. the American constitution was written over 200 years ago and I guess it needs an update....

1. Not true. Depending on what type of sport shooting you do, that can be true. But there is plenty of sport shooting that uses a standard pistol, unmodified, etc... Not that it matters...

2. It is known by who? Please provide statistics to back this up... Because this does not run par with the statistics I've read about time and again.

3. Yes it was, and there are definitely parts of it that have become a bit out of date.

Additionally, the reason I have so many guns, is for several reasons.

1. I like guns, same as I like pool cues. I enjoy the craftsmanship that goes into a gun, same as a cue. Be it custom one off, or production. Both have their pros and cons.

2. I have multiple guns for multiple purposes. I have a small gun for licensed concealed carry. I have a gun for home defense that is larger, with a light attached. For home defense carry size is not an issue, so I prefer the added light and caliber size. I have a firearm for plinking, small caliber. etc...

3. Because I can, so why not? 8)

If we could abolish guns and weapons from the face of the earth, I'd be all for it. But since we can not, I will take advantage of my right to own... I wrote something a while back, I will see if I can find it and post...

[audiopro]

Okay, keep in mind I am not a writer, so this is kinda poorly done. As well it was written close to 10 years ago... Anyway, it chronicles a couple experiences of mine that I think are relevant.



I carry a gun. I have a license to do so. I also believe in God. Once, someone said to me, why do you carry a gun? I told them the obvious answer. To protect myself. Well they conveyed the thought to me that they trust that God will take care of them. I believe God will take care of me, but I need to take logical steps to help him.

This thought just came to me, and so I am writing this.

God takes care of you yes? Then tell me this. If you are driving your car, do you not wear your seatbelt, cause God will take care of you? If you cross the street do you not look both ways, cause God will take care of you? If you jump out of a plane, do you not wear a parachute, cause God will take care of you? I would think you would have to be a fool, to answer yes to any of these. And don't tell me I have exagerated by using these examples. Have you watched the news lately? Have you seen the world we live in? Maybe my eyes see differently than yours. But I will not be the victim.

I pray that I never see the day that I have to pull the trigger, and end the life of anyone. But I do not plan on being a statistic myself.

I was once jumped by eight Puerto Ricans with baseball bats... Long story... And a gun saved my life. They surrounded my car, they smashed my windows, and they attempted to grab me. Until they saw my weapon. Puerto Ricans can run very fast. And this was in a nice neighborhood, not a slum.

I live in Florida, and have most of my life. I love it here. But not just once, but twice in my short 21 years, have I defended myself with a weapon.

Lake Mary, Florida. A rich, upperclass community. And two jokers tryed to carjack me. I quickly presented my weapon, and just about buried it in the guys face, who was coming through my window, that I stupidly rolled down thinking he was going to tell me I had a light out or something. They ran pretty quick to, and they were 100% white, driving a nice car, in a nice area.

God will take care of me, but don't turn this around on me. Even the bible says that Satan rules this world right now. Damn, isn't that blatantly obvious!? I am going to take care of myself, and my loved ones. Life is hard sometimes, and lonely, and not always easy. And sometimes, just like anyone else I wonder, why go on or why are we here. But in the end I love my life, and I love who I am, and where I am at in this world. I aint giving up myself, and there is NO way I will let someone save me that choice!

[spartan]

So, how long did it take you to get used to your 314? :lol:

[DZ314]

Good one Greg, way to go! :P

[dags_lax]

1. Acts as a deterrant for violent criminals.

Major Finding: This chapter reviews the literature on right-to-carry laws and their relationship to murder, rape, assault, and property crimes such as robbery, burglary, and larceny. The author concludes that there is no evidence of reduction in violent or property crime when right-to-carry laws are passed, and that if any association exists between gun carrying and crime, it is that right-to-carry laws are linked to increases in property crime.

Hepburn L, Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. The effect of non-discretionary concealed
weapon carrying laws on homicide. Journal of Trauma. 2004; 56(3): 676-681.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/pdf/litreviewfirearmdeaths.pdf

[DZ314]

1. Acts as a deterrant for violent criminals.

Major Finding: This chapter reviews the literature on right-to-carry laws and their relationship to murder, rape, assault, and property crimes such as robbery, burglary, and larceny. The author concludes that there is no evidence of reduction in violent or property crime when right-to-carry laws are passed, and that if any association exists between gun carrying and crime, it is that right-to-carry laws are linked to increases in property crime.

Hepburn L, Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. The effect of non-discretionary concealed
weapon carrying laws on homicide. Journal of Trauma. 2004; 56(3): 676-681.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/pdf/litreviewfirearmdeaths.pdf

That study is a pile of horseshit!!!!!!!

[LWW]

"Youse buzt in my house ann I will detour youse poimenantly!"
-Joe DiBoss-

LWW

[nathar]

1. Acts as a deterrant for violent criminals.

Major Finding: This chapter reviews the literature on right-to-carry laws and their relationship to murder, rape, assault, and property crimes such as robbery, burglary, and larceny. The author concludes that there is no evidence of reduction in violent or property crime when right-to-carry laws are passed, and that if any association exists between gun carrying and crime, it is that right-to-carry laws are linked to increases in property crime.

Hepburn L, Miller M, Azrael D, Hemenway D. The effect of non-discretionary concealed
weapon carrying laws on homicide. Journal of Trauma. 2004; 56(3): 676-681.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/pdf/litreviewfirearmdeaths.pdf

After reading this "study" I find more opinion pieces than actual facts and stats. I can quote studies from all over the place that completely contradicts your post.

ie:
In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the "Sunshine State" would become the "Gunshine State." Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide. (Source: Kleck, Gary Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 370. Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) If the rest of the country behaved as Florida's permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.
__________________________________________________ ___________
The Lott-Mustard Report

John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, "Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes."

More Guns, Less Violent Crime", Professor John R. Lott, Jr.,
__________________________________________________ ___________

4. Vermont has a genuine right to carry law (i.e., requires no permits) and yet boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the nation
A. Vermont enjoys the 49th lowest crime rate in the nation, according to the FBI:


Violent Crime (1997)
rate per 100,000 people
Rank State Rate
1st Florida 1023.6
2nd South Carolina 990.3
U.S. average 610.8
49th Vermont 119.7
50th North Dakota 87.2

B. The FBI statistics also show that Vermont boasts the 47th lowest murder rate among the 50 states:

D. Not surprisingly, concealed carry laws have worked nationwide to drop crime rates.

1. A comprehensive national study in 1996 determined that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. (10)
2. The results of the study showed:
* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly. (11)

Just to state a few.
And just as an aside, property crimes are far less detrimental to peoples lives than violent crimes. As property crimes are in most cases covered by your home owners insurance.

[nathar]

Mind you that were I come from, guns are quite common although you need a permit to own a gun and it's not easy to get one (self defence at home is not a good enough reason to get one... ) the reality over here is not like in the U.S (not even after 9/11), I had to carry a gun for 3 years and even had to use it (army), so I guess I know a thing or two about guns and what they can do to you.


I also have a certain knowledge of guns and also their effects on living creatures. I have had exposure to firearms since I was 5 years old(under the close supervision of a loving father) and was taught all about gun safety. I have also been a hunter since a very young age. I have seen first hand and close up what a bullet will do to flesh. And it isn't a pretty site. Having said that. I have never had to pull my gun on a person, and God willing I will never have to, but I have no doubt that if that day does come I will make the decision that has to be made without a guilty conscience.

I also have more than one gun. They range in different calibres to accomidate various hunting applications, you wouldn't want to shoot small game with a 30-06 and you wouldn't necesarily go after an elk with a .22. I also own a .45 for self defence and target shooting. While we don't have the same needs for firearms in our country(and I fully appreciate your take and opinion on this subject) as you in your country, that does not make us naive about the firearms that we own or carry.

D. Not surprisingly, concealed carry laws have worked nationwide to drop crime rates.

1. A comprehensive national study in 1996 determined that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. (10)
2. The results of the study showed:
* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly. (11)

Impressive numbers they realy are. But they don't tell the whole story. The fact is is that violent crime has been dropping accrose the nation. Even more so in states with strict gun controll laws than those with out.

Now don't get me wrong, I am in favor of a citizens right to bear arms. But that right comes at a cost. I don't think there are too many who would dissagree with me if I said that if there were no handguns in this country then gun related crime would dissapear. After all that makes perfect sense.

Now let us address criminals with guns. In all fifty states it is against the law for crimianls to purchase handguns. So how do the criminals end up with guns when it is illeagl for them to have them? The simple expalnation is that they steal them from law abiding citizens, or purchase them fom some one who has aquired them illeagly or from from a dealer that is more concered with making a buck than obeying the law. What ever the case may be, every gun in hands of a criminal can ultimatley can be traced back to a law abiding citizen.

[nathar]

[quote]
. I don't think there are too many who would dissagree with me if I said that if there were no handguns in this country then gun related crime would dissapear. After all that makes perfect sense.

Now let us address criminals with guns. In all fifty states it is against the law for crimianls to purchase handguns. So how do the criminals end up with guns when it is illeagl for them to have them? The simple expalnation is that they steal them from law abiding citizens, or purchase them fom some one who has aquired them illeagly or from from a dealer that is more concered with making a buck than obeying the law. What ever the case may be, every gun in hands of a criminal can ultimatley can be traced back to a law abiding citizen.

I personally would have to disagree. The hypothetical possibility of our nation without handguns is an absolute fantasy. As even if handguns were banned outright there will always be a black market for them. Heroine is banned outright in our country, it isn't produced here at least not in the quantities that allows it to cause the problems that it does, yet it still filters its way across our borders.

And as far as criminals with guns, I would like to see a study(although I don't know how it could be conducted) of how many gun related crimes are commited with guns bought through the black markets that haven't been stolen from peoples homes. I bet the numbers would surprise you. You can't just walk into a gun shop and buy a fully automatic uzi you know. My point being that there are a lot of guns sold illegally in this country that have never even had an owner for them to have been stolen from, and I would wager that there are more of this genre of firearms being used to commit crimes than most people would be willing to admit. :(

[DZ314]

We're not going to get the guns out of the hands of criminals now. If we accept that fact then we must come to realize that enacting legislation which restricts or bans gun ownership, it only makes citizens more vulnerable to criminals.

[dags_lax]

Yes there would be a black market for guns. Just like in other countries that have strict gun laws. But the citizens of those countries are far less likely to be victims of crime involving guns (or crime not involving guns for that matter). You would think crime would run rampant against a citizenry that is unarmed thus unable to protect themselves. Go figure.

I’ve said before that I am not in favor of banning guns. But I do realize that there is a cost to society associated with my right to keep and bear arms.


And to the pussy list, along with the protesters, we should include all those able bodied war supporters that choose to let others do the fighting and dying.

[DZ314]

Yes there would be a black market for guns. Just like in other countries that have strict gun laws. But the citizens of those countries are far less likely to be victims of crime involving guns (or crime not involving guns for that matter). You would think crime would run rampant against a citizenry that is unarmed thus unable to protect themselves. Go figure.

I’ve said before that I am not in favor of banning guns. But I do realize that there is a cost to society associated with my right to keep and bear arms.


And to the pussy list, along with the protesters, we should include all those able bodied war supporters that choose to let others do the fighting and dying.

What about Washington DC? They have very strict gun laws and outright bans in many instances yet their violent gun related crime is far from low.

How are able-bodied war supporters pussies? I support the troops who make the sacrifice of fighting for my country. There is a difference which you're neglecting.

[skor]

So, how long has it taken you to adjust to your 314?

we should really stay on the subject....

the gun issue was beaten to death already in this forum and we all agreed to disagree, move on
or at least move it to the general chit chat

[DZ314]

No one listens to you anyway, skor. :lol:

[LWW]

WATER PISTOLS AT TWENTY PACES!!!

LWW

[dags_lax]

How are able-bodied war supporters pussies?

And how are war protesters, some who are veterans that left limbs on the field of battle, pussies? Would my father, a disabled WWII combat vet who didn't support Nam or the second Iraq war, be a pussy if he protested?

The point of my comment being twofold: 1) compared to the men who served we are all pussies and 2) those who believe our soldiers should be fighting and dying but are not doing the fighting and risking the dying themselves are as much a pussy as those who don't think there should be any fighting and dying in the first place.

It’s real easy for us to stick a magnet on our car and say we support the troops. Hell, hawks and the doves alike would like to see more body armor, better health care for returning vets, etc ……. And yes Cory you are right, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUPPORTING THE TROOPS AND SUPPORTING A WAR.

And just so I stay on topic If you define adjusting to your 314 as to how long it takes to get back to your pre 314 skill level then I never did adjust.

[DZ314]

You're missing the point of the image, it is a joke. It picks on anti-war types, just the same as the images/cartoons which pick on the war supporters they are to be taken in jest though if you are an anti-war type then perhaps that is why you don't find the humor in it. :lol:

[LWW]

[nathar]

Yes there would be a black market for guns. Just like in other countries that have strict gun laws. But the citizens of those countries are far less likely to be victims of crime involving guns (or crime not involving guns for that matter). You would think crime would run rampant against a citizenry that is unarmed thus unable to protect themselves. Go figure.



I concur with Skor that we should just agree to disagree on this one or at least move it as we have gotten grossly off topic. I just have this one last comment regarding dags's post. All you have to do is look across the pond to England. You have a major problem with "hooligans" just entering peoples homes and taking what they want WHILE THEIR AT HOME
and leaving their victims dead. Murder isn't exclusive to America. The crime rates in Europe are much higher than our media is willing to report. Especially as they seem bent on trying to turn our country into a western version of the EU.

Now, if it's fine with everone else, I respectfully bow out of this debate to return to the topic at hand. Unless we decide to move it to general chit chat. I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone. :wink: Especially if we can keep it respectful and non personal. That is the only way we can really learn and grow with issues like this. 8)

[LWW]

[DZ314]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DEATHTRON]

This is my old ass thread.....what are you all doing talking friggin guns here? Am I going to have to regulate!?!?!

Zach 8)

[audiopro]

This is my old ass thread.....what are you all doing talking friggin guns here? Am I going to have to regulate!?!?!

Zach 8)

You can be Warren G, I'll be Nate Dog... 8)

[DZ314]

LOL, regulators!!!! Mount up!!!!!! :lol:

[Ptr6347]

I own a 4K1(314). It took me 2 months to get used to it.
Certain shot made my the 314 i love it but there is certain shot 314 cannot do but a normal cue can do better.

[jsggems]

I have a 314 for 1 of my Jacobys and I cant get use to it, I dont like the feel. I like a regular shaft. Old growth or tight grain is the best IMO.

[DaFeldman]

I have never tried the 314 myself, but I doubt I would like it. I'm sure I'll probably give it a month at some point, but I have never had much of a problem using sidespin on just regular house cues, especially running english. The only time I have trouble with deflection itself is on long shots (I rarely, if ever use english from more than 3/4 of a table away). Of course what really complicates matters is the effect of swerve (which works in the opposite direction of deflection), but I just compinsate for deflection and swerve at the same time, because if I tried to calculate it, my head would explode (luckily the effect of swerve is so minimal on short and medium shots that it wouldn't do you any good to think about it). On longer shots, swerve works not only to affect your amount of compensation, but to decrease the angle at contact using run and increase the angle using inside english. The reason I don't see myself using a 314 is that it is inpossible for any cue to reduce swerve, since swerve is really only english before the CB hits the OB. Therefore, the 314 still requires the use of pure feel to make a shot; you can't aim like you can with center ball (you can't say there will be 2 inches of deflection, therfore I can aim 2 inches to the right of my target and sink the ball). The only real advantage of the 314 is that the line line of your stroke is closer to the OB, giving you a better view of the OB. This, IMO is not worth the loss of the feel of the classic shaft and the requirement that you relearn practically every shot all over again. However, it might be a good idea for someone who is uncomfortable using english, so long as they understand the properties of deflection, throw and swerve, and don't try to use the 314 as a substitute.

[poohkiller]

How long does it takes? Well, I own a McDermott with a AAA grade shaft. One of my playing partners has a Predator 4K7 (my dreamcue..) and a 314 (1st gen.) on it. I took it in my hands for the first time and ran over a full 9 ball rack. It was great. I can still remember to a long shot which I had to use some draw on.. To be honest, with my McD. I just can't make these shots, but with the 4k7 i hit it perfect! PERFECT! It was amazing how reliable and great that cue is.. It took me a second to adjust to it.. After this rack I've also played a few other racks (without a full clearence though) and it still was astonishing! That's why I'm planning buying a Pred. for my own too (probable from Seybert's an SP or a 4/5K1)

[rolldarocks]

It took me three days to get used to it. I recently purchased a Z2 for my Meucci Power Piston and I replaced the black dot shaft. Wow, what a difference! At first I couldn't really tell the difference, then after three days of play, I put the black dot back on and thats when I noticed. The Predator really performs. However, watch your running english, the cue just takes off from the rail!

The only trouble I can see is when your out at a bar without the Predator. The house cues will definately need some adjustments.

[tsuguy]

I switched from a 314 to a z2 3 months ago... I still can't make some shots that I used to be consistant at! I love the shaft and I have forced myself to use it because evey stroke I take with it I can tell it's going to be an awesome weapon in the arsenal once I fully "feel" the game with that shaft.

I am however starting to wonder if I will ever reach a level of consistancy with the z2 as I had with the 314... After all I shoot 4 hours a day during the week and 8 on Sat. and Sun. With that much time invested I think I'm going to try the 314 2 and see if I can't ramp that learning curve!