THE AMERICAN MEDIA

[sonnic]

I think the best way to start this is talk about the way the media has covered the war in Iraq. Now you can be for or against the war but no matter what your view you have to agree the media is out of controll. Ever since the prisioner abuse scandal came out it has been the primary foucus and has been on the front page of most major newspapers for over a month. Then the Nick Berg situation happens (getting his head sliced off. What you would think would be a prime time opportunity for the US to show why we are fighting the war) but it doesn't get aired and then hearing very little about agian. Instead of the media hanging fellow americans for some minor abuses why not show how bad it was and the kinds of torture that went on in the Abu Ghraib prison while saddam was in controll.
This will make a very long post but here is a story i was emailed recently.

As perfect justice, the story in fact begins in Abu Ghraib prison, in 1995. With Iraq's economy in a tailspin, Saddam arrested nine Iraqi businessmen to scapegoat them as dollar traders. They got a 30-minute "trial," and were sentenced, after a year's imprisonment, to have their right hands surgically cut off at Abu Ghraib prison.

The amputations were performed, over two days, by a Baghdad
anesthesiologist, a surgeon and medical staff. We know this because Saddamhad a videotape made of each procedure. He had the hands brought to him information and then returned to Abu Ghraib. Oh, one more thing: The surgeon carved an X of shame into the forehead of each man. And the authorities charged the men $50.

Last year, after we liberated Iraq, a veteran TV news producer named Don North--who has worked for major U.S. broadcasters--was in Baghdad with the U.S. to restore TV service. Iraqi contacts there brought him a tape of the men's amputations. Mr. North says dismemberment was common in Saddam's Iraq and that if one walks down a crowded Baghdad street one may see a half-dozen people missing an ear, eye, limb or tongue. He decided to seek out the men whose stubbed arms represented the civilized world's lowest act--the perversion of medicine. He found seven. Mr. North determined to make a documentary of their story and get medical help for them. How he found that help, if one may still use this phrase, is an all-American story.

An oil engineer from Houston, named Roger Brown, overheard Mr. North's tale in a Baghdad café. He suggested Don North get in touch with a famed Houston TV newsman named Marvin Zindler. Mr. Zindler put him in touch with Dr. Joe Agris, a Houston reconstructive surgeon, who has worked in postwar Vietnam and Nicaragua repairing children.

Mr. North sent Dr. Agris a copy of the videotape of the surgical atrocities,
and Dr. Agris said: Send me the men; I will fix them.

But flying seven Iraqi men out of Baghdad is easier said than done. In this
case, prodded by Don North and government friends, the famous U.S.
bureaucracy gave itself a day off. Paul Bremer wrote a memo authorizing
their departure. Paul Wolfowitz told the Air Force it could fly them to
Frankfurt. Homeland Security waived visa requirements.

Continental Airlines donated passage to Houston. There, Dr. Agris enlisted a fellow surgeon, Fred Kestler, to assist. The Methodist Hospital donated facilities, and the men arrived in Houston in early April.

Dr. Agris saw that the Abu Ghraib "surgeries" were a botch. They'd cut
through the joining of the wrist's carpal bones, "like carving a Turkey
leg." Saddam's doctors did nothing to repair the nerve endings, which left
the men with constant real and "phantom" pain. Drs. Agris and Kestler had
two preliminary tasks: Repair the nerves, and, alas, take another inch off
the men's lower arms, to leave a smooth surface for attaching their new
prosthetic "hands." They worked for two days operating on the seven men, who then took a week to recover before receiving their new hands.

Those devices were donated by the German-American prosthetic company Otto Bock, at a cost of $50,000 each. They are state-of-the-art electronic hands, with fingers, which respond to trained muscular movements. The rehabilitation and training is being donated by two other Houston companies, TIRR and Dynamic Orthotics. The Iraqi men are in Houston now, spending five hours a day learning to use their new right hands. And oh yes, the brands on their heads were removed.

Don North completed his documentary on what happened to these men in Iraq. I watched "Remembering Saddam" this week. Several of the men insisted on seeing Saddam's home video of the atrocity, and so it's in the film--a bizarre, almost dainty image of forceps, scalpel, surgical gloves and green operating-room garments. Nothing like it since Dr. Mengele. Watching his hand come off, Baasim Al Fadhly says: "Look at this doctor, who considers his career noble and swears to God to be a noble person. Let everyone see this film."

This crime deserves condemnation from international medical societies, such as the U.N.'s World Health Organization, or the Red Cross. And Don North's film indeed should be seen--but may not be. After two months of trying, no U.S. broadcast or cable network will take it. This is incredible. TV can run Abu Ghraib photos 24/7 but can't find 55 minutes for Saddam's crimes against humanity? On May 23, the American Foreign Policy Council will bring the restored men to Washington. They will visit maimed GIs at Walter Reed Army Hospital. It wouldn't be surprising if they said something positive about the U.S. soldiers who have not been on television the past two weeks.

Then Don North and Joe Agris will fly with the men back to Iraq, to survey
the rest of Saddam's dismembered population. "The practice of prosthetics is very archaic," Mr. North says,"for a country where this is such an affliction." Dr. Agris hopes to survey the hospitals and bring in some modern equipment and supplies. "If they let me, I'll do some of the kids," he says. "Let's show the good side of what we can do."


The point is The media is so politicly biased that it is impossible to get the new straight you have to sift through all the liberalism. Also Education is the same way, how can we expect kids grow up with conservative views when they have to sift through it and they dont know the difference.

[skor]

Scandals sell more and bring more ratings which mean that the networks can sell air time for advertisements for more money.
The media is a business and news have become part of that business.
Showing an Israeli soldier shoots a man in Gaza sells more then showing the damage and loss of life caused by a suicide bomber who was sent by that man.
I guess that this is the twisted reality that we live in, and we all have to find the "real" and our own truth to live by

[skor]

BTW the European media is even worse

[dags_lax]

Seeing how There was no response in the other thread to this I think it needs reposting because the conversation moved to a new and appropriate thread.


If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough eventually people will believe it.. The liberal press is another one of those untruths that has been bantered about so much that it is taken as truth. But for people think that Fox News and the Cleveland Plain Dealer are fair and balanced of course to them all other news outlets will seem liberal.

There is one simple fact that can debunk the whole liberal press fallacy and show that the press is actually more conservative than people realize. In the 2000 presidential election, of the 190 major newspapers that endorsed a candidate 138 of them endorsed Bush. That’s right 73% endorsed Bush. That doesn’t sound to much like a liberal press to me. http://www.wheretodoresearch.com/Political.htm#Endorsements.

In case anyone thinks that 2000 was an abberation consider the following:

Most newspapers across the country consistently endorse the Republican and more conservative candidate. In most elections, the Republican candidate is identified as the conservative candidate because the Republican is usually more conservative than the Democratic candidate. In fact, every election year, except 1964 and 1992, of the newspapers that did endorse a candidate, more endorsed the conservative candidate. Since 1948, newspapers supported the Republican candidate 86.7%, while the Democratic candidates received 13.3% of the endorsements. Source Ashley K. Vroman, "Slandering" the News: How Labelers Cleverly Undermine the Reliability and Validity of Newspapers, 05 May 1999

Would some one please tell me why a liberal press consistantly endorses the more conservitive canidates.

[audiopro]

Very interesting facts.. The question is why? I am not well versed in politics at all. But I am curious dags, why do you think the print media historically endorses the Republican party?

[dags_lax]

why do you think the print media historically endorses the Republican party?

Well it is not because we have a liberal press with an agenda. If that were the case the would be consistently endorsing the Democratic candidates.

People can generally be counted on to act in their own self-interest. The same is true for business. And as Skor aptly noted the media is business and news is part of it. I don't think I would be out of line by suggesting that Republican policies are more economically favorable to big business than Democratic policies. So the endorsements of Republican candidates by the press are in their financial best interests.

Of course the prior paragraph generalities and like everything else there are the occasional exceptions.

[audiopro]

Makes sense, was kinda hoping for something deeper. Some sorta conspiracy.. Oh well...

Seriously though, if the tv and print media is so biased, what’s the recommended path for finding out what the truth is behind politics? Or are we doomed to be ignorant to the truth? Does it really matter if we are ignorant? I don’t take a pessimistic stance on to many things, but I think the problems of our politics are perpetual...

Now by virtue of that should I just turn my back and live in self ordained ignorance?

[skor]

There is no argument that the U.S media and government are conservative, don't forget that the Mayflowers are the ones that built this country and the reason they came to America is because England was not conservative enough for them, some habits are hard to shake even after more then 200 years.
Most of the voters in the U.S are very christians and very conservative, and so are their candidates.
You can see that not just in government decisions and news programs, you can see it while watching a movie on national TV or listening to a song on the radio, you will not see a naked body or hear the "f" word even though every 10 years old kid learn that word in school and has a stuck of porns under his bed.
If you ever get to live a year in any western European country and then go back to the states, you will amazed how conservative America is.
That still does not change the fact that we as humans conservative or liberal, like to see scandals and blood, and just like any drug dealer will tell you, as long as there is demands for it, there will always be someone who will supply it.
As for Audiopro question "what’s the recommended path for finding out what the truth is behind politics?" I would have to say believe to the people who were there and not politicians or media people

[dags_lax]

Conspiracies make for good novels and movies and drunken conversation but I don't buy into them.

To rip off the X-Files "The truth is out there." Or maybe it isn't. I don't know. After all what is the truth any way but one persons perception of reality as seen though the lenses of their own self interest. People base their actions and opinions on that what they believe to be true. And to illustrate the point here is Audio Pro's quote:


I don't know why people are afraid of him. He did invent the Internet ya know...

That's the supposedly liberal press again. Beating up on what would be their candidate if they were a liberal press.

In fact this is another example a lie being told over and over until it is accepted as a truth. You have got to admit that the Republican National Committee knows how to run a no holds barred win at all costs campaign.

Check out http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/2000/RRE.Al.Gore.and.the.Inte.html to find out about the Al Gore and the Internet quote that never was.

[skor]

Al Gore???, you mean the guy that is married to the person that tried to stop music by banning artist who had something to say, even if they used bad language to say it.
If he was the president then bye bye freedom of speech

[audiopro]

Al Gore is an idiot. I don't know who's desk he spent time under to even get to where he is now..

[skor]

Al Gore is an idiot. I don't know who's desk he spent time under to even get to where he is now..

well I know for sure that it wasn't Bill Clinton's desk, I don't think that Al and Monica could have fit there together :)

[dags_lax]

Except for the first and last paragraph of the lead post in this thread the text was authored by Daniel Henninger and appeared in the May 14th 2004 issue of The Wall Street Journal. Daniel Henninger is deputy editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page.

[9balldiva]

I think the promotion of republican parties gives them an in to say that they are not liberal media, and that they don't alway support that wing. I do believe that most of our media is more left winged. As a conservative I think I can speak for allot of us and say if it were my TV station I would be more focused on what Iraqi soldiers were doing to my men, than what my men were doing to them. I would show the burning of the WTC every day to remind people that even the most powerful country can be threatened. I would show the crowds supporting our troops instead of featuring stories about protestors. I would broadcast stories like the one Sonnic shared about Sudaam. I wouldn't create TV shows just because the other races think we are being racist by not having a black, puerto rican, or asian on the show. I would have canceled Jerry Springer two days after it started. The liberal media is exactly that. They think gay is okay, and racism is always the answer, and bashing Bush is comforting, and showing stories about Iraqi prisoners is heartwarming. They are full of shit...and whatever they supported before the election is no longer obvious to me.

I am conservative and I do believe the FNC is balanced. It may sway to the right some, but every show I have watched has a liberal view on it as well. Some of the hosts are liberals. You see both views...and to me that accounts for balanced.

[audiopro]

I hung out with my sister and her girlfriend over the weekend, and the expressed how much they want Kerry in office so they can get our troops out. I understand wanting our troops home and safe. But at the same time I wonder at what cost. Can we really just pick up and leave and do nothing else?

Knowing my sister and her views, I personally think this is just an excuse and a bandwagon to jump on because the gay community obviously has issues with the bush administration.

But what do I know...

[9balldiva]

you are exactly right. The democratic side of the views typically supoorts gay rights. You won't meet very many conservative gays. I'm not saying they aren't just as nice as you or me, but I just don't support the ideas of giving them marriage rights.

...to answer your question...no, we can' just pack up and leave. it would never work that way...anyone who thinks it would is incredibly naive to what problems are already opened...I am scared for our country if Kerry makes it into office!

[audiopro]

As am I. He says he will keep our country safe, but does he have a clue? We cannot just put walls up around our borders and allow no one in. That negates everything that made America what it is today. So, in my opinion we must work on a global basis to thwart terror attacks, not just here but in other countries.

There are those who argue that the US tries to play international police. Well, I dont see what is wrong with this honestly. True it means our ideals and morals are will be what dictates our actions, but if that is what we believe in I guess we have to do it. Just like these terrorists believe they get a nicer room in heaven if they kill us.. I know whose ideology I feel is right. And so,I support our actions fully.

Besides, you almost have to play international cop to keep our country alone safe. Ugh, things with politics and morals can get so complicated. Well at least we can allow them to.

[9balldiva]

true true...I had one disagreement! I wish we could seal off our borders. Vacationing is fine but immigrants just wanting to "get away" is rediculous. You do know what our immigration policy is right? It's the wet foot/dry foot policy. Basically if an immigrant reaches land they are good to go, but if we catch them in the water then we send them home. I hate to say this (well, no I don't): we have enough problems with Americans, we don't need extras runnign around too!

[audiopro]

My issue with that is few of us are Native American, so few of us would be here given the principal of seal off the borders.

At the Statue of Liberty it reads "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free..."

The poem The New Colossus, by Emma Lazarus is one of the principles this country was founded on. We are a beacon of hope for those who are oppressed by tyranny. If not for this principal few of us would be living in this great country right now, so who are we to deny the same liberties that we have been given?

So many immigrants just want to build a life in this great country, wouldn't you if you lived in a run down oppressed country?

It's a double edged sword I know... Sad but true...

[skor]

There are a lot of iligal immigrants in the U.S, that's a fact and no government could find them all and kick them out, yes you hear a story of catching some here and there but that's nothing.
A lot of those immigrants are doing hard labor that no american wants to do anyway, so instead of putting a lot resourses to find them and kick them out, give them a green card and start taxing the money that they make.
You can't win an unwinable war

[9balldiva]

We could debate this for hours. Most Americans don't want to do that work...you are right. That still doesn't make it okay for illegal immigrants to come in and take our jobs, in fact, that helps raise the unemployment rate! In my office there are illegal immigrants...and it isn't hard labor that nobody else wants to do. I know it isn't possible to kick them all out...I alos know the only true americans are the Natives, but America is already over populated, jobs are hard to come by, etc...we just need better regulation of the states, rather than letting any 'ol Joe in that wants a better life. I have a completely different outlook on immigration...that is rather clear to me...I feel that when a person is bornin another country he/she is meant to be there. I believe God has a path for everyone, and by leaving your intended path you screw up someone elses...

[audiopro]

Well who are you to dictate what Gods path for an individual may be? How do you know it is not in Gods plan for them to seek a better place? Just because someone is born Hindu, does that mean they are destined to worship cows? Are they not allowed to seek God for themselves?

Your logic does not work as far as your plan from God theory. And I think it is arrogant for you to assume you know Gods plan for everyone...

No disrespect meant..

[9balldiva]

I don't think i know God's plan...I simply think that everyone starts out on their intended path. I believe what I believe, to you it may sound ignorant, but to the next guy plausable...don't call it ignorance because you don't agree with it. That my dear is ignorance...

[audiopro]

I feel that when a person is bornin another country he/she is meant to be there. I believe God has a path for everyone, and by leaving your intended path you screw up someone elses...

Did I say ignorant?

The above two sentences stated in the same paragraph would lead me to believe they are related. Meaning that you feel and believe Gods plan is for them to stay where they're born.

Maybe I do not understand your statement. So you dont think God intends people to stay where they were born or you do think God intends them to stay? Now do YOU feel by leaving their country they are messing up their path GOD has layed out, or is it a seperate matter?

[DZ314]

Ok you two, play nice now! :o

[audiopro]

But of course!!! :)

I just dont want Diva to think I called her ignorant.. No way jose would I say something unfounded like that. Sorry Diva if my statement was taken out of it's intended context..

[DZ314]

You just said that it was arrogant for her to assume she knows God's plan for everyone. She must have confused arrogant with ignorant.

[skor]

I think that diva is a bit young and she looks at the world from the bubble she lives in, I'm sure when she'll grow up a bit, finish school and maybe travel a bit, she will see things in a different way, not so black and white but rather many shades of gray

[skor]

BTW diva, you mentioned before that your grand father is from Spain, So I guess he is an immigrant as well, now do you want to kick him out as well?, just think where would have you been right now if he was kicked out when he arrived to the states

[Deb]

Just my .02

Everybody reads their bible differently.

I was born a Lutheran, but I don't follow or agree with the "guidelines" that is set forth for the Lutheran. Mostly because I can view another person's point of view and etc.

My father and I do not see eye to eye on alot of things (Some he would say is a SIN!) (Like..I'm not married yet or haven't gave him a grandchild) :)

All I can say is that the bible specifically says "Thou shall not judge" and it also teaches us to be humble. Of course it could mean something else to someone else.

:)

[New Kid In The Hall]

Audiopro, the print and tv media is left biased. I think that most of them are bleedinghearts that don't take their job as reporting any more, but one of shaping to their own views.

Have any of you read Bernard Goldberg's book called "Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How The Media Distort The News" or his sequel? It is a very candid look at how reporting can be twisted or strained. This book infuriated Dan Rather to the point that he would not speak another work to Bernie. This was a great read and an eye-opener for many who thought nothing the media slant.

I have another litmus test...we have two local Washington, D.C. papers...the Washington Post (the liberal gorilla) and the Washington Times (a conservative chimp). Both are typically side by side in the morning at the 7-11 convenience stores. Look at just the front page headlines of each and you can see which way the news is being reported (or not being reported in many cases). When Newt Gingrich had long since resigned his speakership and was later in fact exonerated of all charges pressed against him by his colleages from across the aisle...the Post reported this in a tiny section on page A22. Times had it on the front page as a lead story...just one example of the left leanings of the Post. They wouldn't think of repairing a reputation they took pains to smear while he was in the heat of the accusations. By the way, Newt's book "To Renew America" is a great read.

[CJK]

My family came to this country in the 1880's. When they did, they came through Ellis Island, and followed the law. They also came here to start new lives, to work and become productive members of society. When my great-grandfather died, he owned a business, provided jobs for people in the community, was a landowner and mortgage holder for several other properties, and had three children, all of whom worked. He didn't expect to sneak in here and have our government take care of him and his family. That's the difference, in my book. I have no problem with people who come to this country legally, just those who break the law.

[audiopro]

Well said CJK, follow the law of the land.. I totally agree...

[9balldiva]

For one: i didn't say throw everyone out...that's impossible. I said it should be more regulated.

Arrogant...ignorant...to me they are both insults, does it eally matter which one I write.

I am not debating this anymore...I have been called arrogant and basically told I was too young to have a meaningful opinion. I see no point in being criticized for my opinions...

[New Kid In The Hall]

CJK, all I can say is RIGHT ON! This is the land of free enterprise and the ability to be an entrepreneur. Be a producer, not a consumer!

[sonnic]

How about the New York Times they have been caught making up phony stories and sources on several occasions

Diva hang in their girl. Things can get heated in a debate don't take it personally. I enjoy hearing your opinons so keep them coming

[9balldiva]

Nah...I better stay out of his one...I can see that it is going no where for me to express my thoughts. I like debates that can remain friendly, and respectful....I think this one is passing by that idea.

Sorry to those of you who enjoy my opinions...somewhere else!! You all enjoy and don't beat on one another too much!

[skor]

I suggest that we keep a way from religion, politics and ....guns, and stick to the good things in life, It might be boring but no one will get offended and we'll stay the happy family that we are :)

[sonnic]

I disagree somewhat SKOR i think it is healthy to talk about these issues... When you debate sometimes people get offended. Just like if a country goes to war people WILL DIE.

[DZ314]

What! No they are not supposed to, that is just inconceivable!!!! Why is this happening? OMG, we need to do something about this right now!!!

[dags_lax]

I enjoy these issue discussions. To me another person's opinions are as worthy of consideration as are my own. And just because my opinion is different than some one else’s doesn't mean that I cannot sit down and enjoy beer with them at the end of the day. But on the other hand, if some one out there feels differently and is so narrow minded and unwilling to respect my right to my opinion, well, I guess I that's not the kind of person I would care to share a beer with anyway.

A frank discussion with differences of opinions forces me to reevaluate and justify my own opinions. I have changed my view on issues in the past when presented with facts that I couldn’t counter. A person that forms an opinion on an issue with out having an understanding of all sides of the issue is being manipulated by those supplying the information on which the opinion is based.

A little something to think about: When two people disagree they both can't be right but they both could be wrong.

[New Kid In The Hall]

I enjoy these discussions too.

Diva, you can be respectful of someone else's opinion and still disagree with it. "Tolerance" means I acknowledge, but it doesn't mean I accept (like some groups would wish).

My take is, what makes one form an opinion. Rarely if ever does someone hold the same point of view their whole life. We make our point of view from what we know, learn, or worse..by what we feel. Unless you inquire and see what others know, learned, or why they hold to conclusions, you could be limited your own reasoning to be able to come to conclusions for yourself.

Dags: Well said..."When two people disagree, they both can't be right, but they both could be wrong." That is very true.

[sonnic]

calm down fury its no time to start a protest. yes Fury when people fight someone will most likely get hurt. When 2 countries go to war and try and kill eachother people WILL DIE. Step out of fanasy land and dip your toe in the real world.

[dags_lax]

Sonnic, I think Fury was just being facetious.

[DZ314]

calm down fury its no time to start a protest. yes Fury when people fight someone will most likely get hurt. When 2 countries go to war and try and kill eachother people WILL DIE. Step out of fanasy land and dip your toe in the real world.
Ain't sarcasm a &*^% on the internet!!!!!!! :lol:

[9balldiva]

New kid...that was my point! I was respectful to everyone who had different opinions, but I was shot down when my different opinion was voiced

[DZ314]

I think that diva is a bit young and she looks at the world from the bubble she lives in, I'm sure when she'll grow up a bit, finish school and maybe travel a bit, she will see things in a different way, not so black and white but rather many shades of gray

I believe this is a bit too personal and judgemental.

[9balldiva]

I would have to agree with you COF...my take on that is none of the people in this forum know anything about me, except what I have put on here. I assure you there is so much more...I think Neil is the only one who is qualified enough to judge me at all

[skor]

So you guys think that american media is too liberal, well let me smash that "beautiful" idea for you, The American media is as liberal as it is allowed to be by coservatives, as I said before, the media is a business and they only show what people want to see in order to get high rating so they could sell air time for commercials for more money, all that to a line that won't make to much waves with the coservative and christian public. The best example is that you can see on national television people getting killed and tortured BUT the United States is the ONLY western civilized country where you can not see on natioanl television people make love, and I'm not talking about gay sex or porn, I'm talking about love scene that you can see in regular films, but once they are on tv, those scenes are cut out, Just look at all the noise that went around after the Jeanett Jackson thing.
We all know that sex sell but on national tv - no way, that means troubles for the networks and they won't come from the liberal public.
I have lived in different places in my life so I guess I see things with a wide point of view.
BTW media should be liberal and show both sides of the coin without taking sides.
the idea that the media is only liberal to a point is a very dangerous idea

[DZ314]

That's all very nice skor but you still have not apologized to 9BallDiva.

[skor]

I don't feel that I need to, I would love that she will write her opinions now and read them again in 10 - 15 years.
I think that she is a bit extremist and I think that it's an age thing, I know that I was extremist when I was younger but as I grew older I learn to look at things different.

I don't feel that I need to apologize for my opinions, just as I never asked anybody else to apologize for their opinions.

I actually respect her for having an opinion, most people in her age group don't realy give a damn about nothing.

[DZ314]

Voicing an opinion is one thing, making the comment "she looks at the world from the bubble she lives in" was a bit over the top and insulting.

[skor]

we all look at the world from bubble that we live in, the question is how big is it?
the older you get, the bigger your bubble gets.
I did not mean to offend her, and if I did then I'm sorry

[DZ314]

Ok, well I think that some of us here looked at that as if to say she was not in touch with the world, which would be insulting. I am not trying to do anything but bring these matters to light. I hope you understand. You're still cool with me. ;)

[New Kid In The Hall]

I'm not talking about sexual content on network TV when I talk about the media being almost prodominantly liberal. I'm talking about news and information. Period.

People in power in most of the major media are bleeding heart left-wingers. Participant talk radio is king anyway. All of the so-called experts that need to comment for us to be able to understand things...please.

[skor]

I guess you're right about news programs, they do tend more to the left side of the political spectrum. Great journalism is the kind that shows the facts without taking sides, just like a sport broadcaster should not show that he has a favorite team.
I do belive that when a country is at war, then the whole country, political spectrum and media should unite to support the war effort, showing cracks at the home front, brings weakness to the battle field

[New Kid In The Hall]

Any house divided against itself WILL fall. Fact, not opinion.

[9balldiva]

The reason I saw that as insulting was simply because you don't KNOW me. If you hung out with me on daily basis and saw the way my life is lived, then yes, you would be at liberty to be able to make that assesment. The crowds I typically hang out with are at least 10 years older than me...I have a more grown mind, and have been through things most 20 year olds have not...in turn, making my mind age faster. I accept your apology, and you have every right to an opinion, but when judging ones character with out knowing them it is more an insult than an opinion. You see where I am coming from?

[dags_lax]

I do believe that when a country is at war, then the whole country, political spectrum and media should unite to support the war effort

I vehemently disagree. To stifle our freedoms, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the right to assemble. To stifle these freedoms is to become the very things our great nation has fought against. History is rife with examples of nations whose citizens blindly and unquestioningly follow their leaders. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin just to name a few. In fact all oppressive regimes through out history have suppressed the rights and freedoms of it’s citizenry in order to maintain the power of the rulers.

Remember, Hitler came to power in a democratic Germany. In the middle to late thirties he put his country on a war footing. He played on peoples fears, their desire for security. Individual liberties were sacrificed for the (supposed) greater good of Germany. We all know what that eventually lead to.

In every war this country has been involved in there were citizens who disagreed. If a war is truly moral and just, if it is worth the lives of our young men and women, then an overwhelming majority of the people will support it. And if that is the case then the whole country, political spectrum, and media will support it with very little dissent. And if that is not the case then perhaps we shouldn’t be at war.


showing cracks at the home front, brings weakness to the battle field.

I know reports in the press questioning the reasons for, or the wisdom of a war, don’t make our bombs less effective, our bullets less lethal. So I assume that you are inferring that the people serving in our armed forces are somehow not as capable. Personally I give our men and women more credit than that.

I will grant that dissent at home can strengthen the resolve of the opposition. But we need to remember that one of the reasons our men and women serve is to protect our right to dissent.


Any house divided against itself WILL fall. Fact, not opinion.

What is a democracy but a house divided against itself?

I have to say that War should NEVER be supported no matter what its wrong. Someone here said that us soldiers commited minor abuses there is not such thing come on imagige that the person being totured was your self would you think that they were minor? I dont think so. US in any case was supposed to be the great liberator and then they go and torture some one that is just wrong.
So by some ones reasoning if your president was hittler and you were german you were supposed to support that war? that its just wrong.
You american people should stand out to your goverment and make them hear you they or he cant just do what ever he pleases. The democraci its bases in the majority so how come this war was started I dont beleive that the american people wanted this war.
Getting into a war is something you could have valid reasonsexample ww2 but starting a war its a very different thing you are offending not defending.

[DZ314]

Guest, go babble mindlessly on another forum with your anti-American ideas. They are not welcome here. You fall within this statement:

SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
0 rows returned

[pls]

To 314- Well done!
To guest- You French are sooo French!

[DZ314]

Haha, yeah just wait until the Germans come knocking on their door again and when we look to the east we'll be blinded by all of the yellow. :D

[audiopro]

America would not exist if not for the civil war. According to Guest's statement no one should have supported that. Thus, America would not exist??

Guest's statement is illogical, unfounded, and holds not a single ounce of value in my opinion.. But the great thing about America, and the Internet, is everyone IS welcome to their own free thought and expression....

DONK!!!!!

[DZ314]

I'd like to "donk" someone alright!!!!!!!!!! Quit running, guest, so I can "donk" ya! :D

I am not running and I am not french , I am disapointed, I thought people in general was against war.
I understand past civil wars but those times are gone today there is no need to kill people to be heard (although some countries get so desperate that they still do it but 3 world countries)
I am not anti american I am anti war I cant beleive that you actually like war maybe all your heads are too full of movies and video games were the war its ok and people gets killed by dozens so some hulk can be an hero.
Also I am not trying to offend anyone contrary to some of you who have called me and idiot and what not.
You are entitled to your opinion but mine its that killing its wrong no matter what .
Every day I pray that this war ends I am afraid of what might happen in the future. You do realize that you are generating hate against america in all of the world what do you think the childs of afganistan or iraq will do when they are older and they know that their parents sisters and brothers were killed by an american bomb.
I hope that you never experince war but maybe some one will take the war to america for all the crimes that are being commited in their country by americans. Take for example 9/11 it was done by people with so much hate against america that they were willing to end their own lifes, you dont generate hate out of no where it is probable that america did something to them.
It seems that your president its only looking for trouble, now let talk about the new restrictions against cuba, do you think that its right to do that? (may be you do but it isnt) Fidel will not last much more he is old and sick and it is just a matter of time for him to die there is no need to make all the country suffer, you do realize that people starving in cuba its more because of US restrictions (Ok may be you dont but they are) than because of the communist regime. I am not against Comunism ( I think its an unreachable utopia, unreachable because of human nature) I am against Fidel he is senile and with too much power but there would be less problems in cuba if there were less restriction or none.

Well I think your president has very odd ideas of americas place in the world, America may be the #1 country in the world but that does not make america the ruler of the world.

America have enough problems inside like racism, drugs, assasins , and what not to go to another country and make more.
I cant beleive either that you support your president knowing he won the presidency cheating.

WAR its WRONG no matter what.

[DZ314]

War is a necessary evil. If it had not been for some wars, as audiopro stated, the world might be a very different place right now. How did Bush "cheat" to win the presidency? It is called an electoral college, if you do not understand how that works then you need to make like an intellectual and read up on it so you do not make any more ignorant comments. America will always be hated, if you do not believe that then you are one lost little sheep.

"America will always be hated, if you do not believe that then you are one lost little sheep."

This is a very sad statement and point of view, but it may hold truth if you contineu with your war policy.
I am not from the US I dont know how exactly the electing process is but I dont have to to know when someone is cheating

[DZ314]

Ok then Mr. Smarty pants, explain to all of us exactly how Bush "cheated" as you so eloquently put it.

[sonnic]

First of all I must say that war CAN be justified. And in this case I think it is. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about what so ever. By your grammar your intelligence shows right through. I must say war is a horrible thing and should be avoided at all costs. But as I said sometime war is necessary to keep the peace in the world. Saddam was a danger to the world and it is absolutely crystal clear that that the world is better without him.

Guest said, "Dictatorship its not a good way of goberment but in these civilized times war its worse and a war for money its even worse."

A year war is worse than 30+ years of genocide??? What planet are you living on Mr. Guest??? Open your eyes we are not benefiting from the oil in Iraq... look at gas prices now are you benefiting? Of course not. We are there to FREE the Iraqi people and stabilize the region.

Guest said, ""America went there only for tow reasons power and money no world security, its a fact that the world its more dangerous because of your declared war to terrorism. I am not only speaking of innocent people of Iraq I am also speaking for all your soldiers that don’t even know why are they dying for (and It isn’t for your country) I just cant understand why the people in America does nothing against your president / goverment when its clear he/they have been lying to you with out any remorse.

First of all who do you think you are? How do you know that their was ONLY "tow" reasons anyway an NO world security how could you possibly know that? How do you classify a fact that the world is more dangerous now??? What a stupid statement by you. And duh if you look back when is that last terrorist attack.........um 9/11 2001 It has almost been 3 years and not even a close attempt. What does that tell you? WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO SPEAK FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR OUR (what is this your soldiers shit again what planet are you from?) SOLDIERS. Just because Michael more says the solders aren't happy certainly doesn't make it true. I would predict that over 75% of solders are proud to serve and proud of what they are doing. What has Bush "lied" about???? You have no basis for that statement at all.

Don't tell me you think that there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq if you think that then im sorry I wasted my time writing this post. It is abundantly clear Saddam USED wmd's against the Iraqi people. Do you trust that saddam destroyed them all??? VERY unlikely. Yeah its true that the weapons inspectors didn't find any WMD's but I would argue they couldn't find them if we gave them 100 years. How are you going to search an entire country for something that small? And also with this oil for food scandal going on I don't think anyone can trust the UN. Especially the commy Hans bilix

Your are French aren't you Guest....

you have very distorted views i hope that most of the world disagrees with you.

I dont care about my grammar english its not my first language I bet you dont know anyother language, I am getteing upset of you people insulting me I have not insulted any of you I have just stated my point of view which I am entitled of

"A year war is worse than 30+ years of genocide??? What planet are you living on Mr. Guest??? Open your eyes we are not benefiting from the oil in Iraq... look at gas prices now are you benefiting? Of course not. We are there to FREE the Iraqi people and stabilize the region."

I am not saying that its better but there should be other options than war and they were getting to the tables when you disided to go to war.
Also the money benefits will not be for the american people they will be for some particulars.
Free the irqui people its not your responsability, America its not the master of the world and should not take that kind of action on its own that is why the onu was created for.

I already said I am not french and I am not american Ok. Also I could care less about my english grammar.
when the UN did not find the weapons US should hold and not start asuming things.
Its not only me who sais the world its more dangerous there are organisations like international amnisty

"WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO SPEAK FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE OR OUR (what is this your soldiers shit again what planet are you from?) SOLDIERS. "

Ok I made a mistake here speaking for your soldiers, because of what I am reading you americans like war and killing people so may be they are happy about that, there are even photos to prove that.

Going to war because of personal reasons its not lieying? About not knowing of the tortures its not lieying?

I guess only time will tell if I am right or wrong to your eyes.
I wont post anything else about this topic unless I am insulted again.

[pls]

If I was french I'ld deny it too.

you are just plain stupid If I was french I would never deny it I am very proud of being of the country I am. BTW I wont tell you which so say what ever you want.

[DZ314]

No guest, you are plain stupid. You are defending Saddam and terroists because you are basically saying that war against brutal dictators and terrorists is wrong. Wake up already.

It is wrong and may be someday you will understand there are other ways besides going to war.
may be you think ghandi was a stupid person because he wanted to find other ways to solve problems besides war

[DZ314]

What? Did I hear something? Oh, you're still here? I thought you said you were leaving. I guess you're a liar then too like the rest of them.

In any case I have never said I am a saint

[DZ314]

Then who are you to speak out against the supposed wrong doings of others if you yourself are not perfect? What grounds do you have?

[Deb]

hi hi hi :)

Breathe in and out :)

Beautiful day outside! Wish I was out there to enjoy it!

[audiopro]

Speaking of beautiful day outside... I will be heading over to the track (Daytona Raceway) after work.. They have some qualifiers running, and the Paul Revere 250. My boss here at work is an official for the track also, so I get infield credentials.. Yay!!!!

[DZ314]

threadjackerz!!!!!!!

[audiopro]

threadjackerz!!!!!!!

LOL.. Yeah!!!! :-P

So it's like... I totally love my new car by the way. It is amazing how fast you can go from old man who doesn't care what he drives to, mid life crisis I need a fast sexy car!!! lol.. j/k.. I think....

If anyone is interested maybe I can get some pics of it up too. I joined a Camaro forum at camaroz28.com, but it is way to active to keep up on.. Hundreds of posts a day...

[DZ314]

Join ls1.com too, lots of good stuff there. Pics would be cool dude! That way I'll know what I will get a ride in when I get down there to visit and shoot some pool! :D

[audiopro]

Going to check ls1.com now!! Thanks!!

I have to finish detailing her.. There is a LOT of car to detail in a Camaro. All the body panels are HUGE and all the glass is SUPER HUGE!!!

Probably this weekend I will be able to get some up. Everyone is always so hell bent on mod'ing out their cars. This one will be staying stock with the exception of changing the oil, adding fuel, and changing the blinker fluid every so often.. ;)

[DZ314]

:lol: Cool enough. No prob on the referral. :D