How's the Economy?

[sonnic]

I am as some of you know a Financial Advisor. I hear a lot of talk about the market being Great and the market going down the crapper. So I would like to get your opinion on how the current economy is doing. Also i would like to hear about how you feel about the stockmarket. Is it going up or down? Are you invested or in cash? I will give you my analysis but first i want to hear what you think...

[audiopro]

I went with not doing anything. But I say that only because I don't feel it has done anything very signifigant in recent years. The tech industry I can attest has gone down the tubes. And it seems like nothing is being done by the people nor the government to change that.

The stock market depends. You have your funds which are finally starting to level out again after some time. With that I mean the 401k type investments. As for other investments, they are all still a crapshoot. I dont think anything has become super stable yet, but I dont think we are in any way doing bad.

It is as it has always been if you ask me. Take any 10 year span, and average it out. And that is where we are now. The need for FA's, Brokers, etc I can say is growing. I know this better than anyone because of the firm I worked for previously. They recruited brokers, national sales managers, vice president, etc. for all the big guys.

[DZ314]

I agree with audiopro. I think that it is not doing much right now as far as getting better or worse.

[Deb]

I think it's getting worse.

Stock is having its own days...bit moody if you ask me.

I have some investment (401K) but it'll be a long time before it'll actually be more worth than it is now.

Jobs is hard to find around here...my oldest sister was laid off and she searched for jobs for nearly 6 months before she finally got one and she has to travel one hour one way to work. (She has BA in accounting and has serveral certificate for various fields).

My brother (not the one in Iraq) has been jobless for nearly a year and he was a press lineman. He was also laid off.

No Jobs - Lousy Stockmarket , plenty of jobs - increase in stock market

That's my opinion based on what has happened to my family and friends.

[9balldiva]

Well, my opinion is that it will get better soon. Right now all the election propaganda is heating up and will continue to until Dubya is in office again (I hope). Once a President is elected I think the economy will pick up again. Right now there are many people who don't really know what to think...the stock market is fluctuating day to day. Jobs for my town right now are booming. I am kinda biased on the construction side of things, but for this the job market is calling for more workers. Construction projects are being boughtout day after day, and it isn't stopping! It'll take some time, but 'ol Dubya will pull us through the rough spots!

[audiopro]

Hail Dubya!!! :-P

[DZ314]

Dubya in 2004!!!!!!! :lol:

[maughanm]

What effect on the economy will gas prices have?

[9balldiva]

Nowadays there is really no telling. People can't stop buying gas, so technically it will keep it rising!!!???!!! I know I am not gonna start riding my bike to school and work...

[audiopro]

I am!!!

[9balldiva]

lol...really?

[Deb]

I would ride bicycle to work but problem is...work is right off the US12 and some drivers around here ain't so bright.

And I would have to get up awfully early to give myself an hour to pedal to work.

Hmm..wonder if a Scooter would be an improvement over a car? hmm. I don't think so....

[DZ314]

US-12 is definately a dangerous highway.

[maughanm]

It was costing me around 200 bucks/month just to get to work and back before it went up 40 more cents....I can ride the scoot and cut that in half....but this time of year rain is too unpredictable...I don't mind the rain on pleasure rides, but coming in the office dripping wet is another matter.....I do think the economy is recovering somewhat....I don't know if gas prices may hinder that or not...

[sonnic]

Well the Dow Jones Industrial Average (the general stock market index) I am very pleased to report was up over 28% last year. Unemployment is down and is now at 5.6% witch is fair. Interest Rates were the lowest they have been in a very long time witch has been good for the real estate market witch i believe is very close to its high (you may have noticed property values increasing) The Dow got up to a high of 11,700 as of April of 2000, then fell down to 7,197. To date the market is just shy of 10,000, which shows we have come a long way. GEORGE W. BUSH (Great Man). He wants to get reelected more than anything just like any president would, infact the stock market hasn't went down in an election year since 1960. And in the second half of an election year 80% of the time the market has gone up double digits. Hey the economy is in great shape and it has been in great shape for over a year now. The "Crash" of 2000 has not left the minds of investors so even when they see a good market they are still a timid and shy away. But if you look at the big picture we already picked up almost all we gained in 2000.

I don't know witch way the next 1,000 points will move in the market, but i do know which way the next 10,000 point move will be and that is UP!!.

Bottom line is don't worry about what happens today or tomarrow, worry about the general moving direction. I think a good way to look at it is, Do you think AMERICA and its top companys are growing or shrinking? Would you invest in you country's stock??? I know i would bet on AMERICA any day. I have in the past and I have ALWAYS WON over time.

RULES TO INVESTING:
1) BUY QUALITY 2) DIVERSIFY 3) GIVE IT TIME

very good maughanm, Gas prices are the only thing that could really negitively effect the market place in the short term. But as i stated before we need not worry about what happens day to day as long as we get by this and grow in the process.

$250 per month with 13% return for 30 years grows to
1.1 MILLION DOLLARS

or 250 month 10% return 35 years = just under a MILLION DOLLARS
IF YOU FOLLOW THE RULES...

[dags_lax]

I think we have a mixed bag of an economy and whether it is good or not depends on your personal outlook for the future. Productivity is way up and fueling profits but at the and in the past this resulted in real gains for wage earners but this it not the case in this cycle as real wages are remaining relatively stagnant. Low interest rates are ecouraging consumer spending but the flip side of that is individual debt is higher than it has ever been. We are seeing a recovery in the job market but wages are lower for those reentering the work force.

Mrs. Dags is calling so I gotta go so to summarize: For me I think the economy is doing fine. I am going into retirement with more money than I was working. But for my children I am very concerned. I wish I had more time. I would love to go on about how the short term looks very rosy but for many but the long tem picture is looks dismal.

[sonnic]

Why do you think the long term looks dismal dags? For the past 70 years the market has gone up and it has gone down but overall it has averaged about a 10% return per year. I have the opposite assessment in that i think the short term may have some short commings but overall i know the economy will grow stronger.

A basic mutual fund (Growth & Income) the worst someone has done in a 20 year period is make 5 times their money. so if you invested 10K and you happend to catch the worst 20 year market ever your 10K would of grown to $49,845.... not bad and if your wondering the best 20 year period you would of turned 10K into $224,275. If anyone doesn't believe this i am happy to mail out information proving my case. This is not some gimicy fund either its one of the most conservative of its kind.

It is possible that we might have a depression or something extreeme like that. But god help us all if that happens cause no matter where your money is it probibly wouldn't be worth anything.

[dags_lax]

You are looking at the economy through the perspective of the markets and corporate profits based on historical performance. I focus more on the average citizenry

My items of concern:

1) Lack of education. For the first time in American history we have a generation will be less educated than their parents generation.
2) A shrinking middle class. Concentration of wealth at the top while an ever increasing percentage of the population is living in poverty and the stagnate growth of income for the middle class.
3) Short sighted government policies that favor short term investor profits over the long term welfare of the nation. Democrats are just as guilty of this as Republicans. Politicians are more concerned with reelection which brings me to my next point.
4) The influence of big money in the political arena. Santa Clara County v the Southern Pacific Railroad (1886) and court decisions derived from it need to be reigned in.
5) Federal deficits. We can't keep taking cash advances on the federal visa card. Although this may be shorter term. We had huge tax cuts under the Reagan administration under the assumption that this would boost the economy and the lost revenues would be made and then some. It didn't happen and forced Bush Sr. to go back on his campaign promise of "Read my lips. No new taxes." That probably cost him the election but his restoration of fiscal sanity played a significant role in the Clinton administration boom years.

I could probably go on but that’s enough for now.

[dags_lax]

Dubya in 2004!!!!!!!

If Dubya was half the man his daddy was he might be worth consideration. The only thing Dubya has going for him Kerry.

[New Kid In The Hall]

Sonnic,

I think it's getting better. The market took off for most of 2003 and the stocks that are posting better than expected earnings and sales are leading.

It is my feeling that the tech and dot.com surge in the 1990's was a joke. There was alot of money made on speculation and when the revenues and earnings didn't follow on after the premature dot.com crowning on Wall Street, things obviously had to take a huge correction. Just like the housing market right now. It's a seller's market, but the increase in prices is not going to last. It will level off or even slightly decline from top numbers.

Great stocks perform well unless the overall market is keeping even them down. I think finding the gems that are as yet undiscovered is the way to go and for me, individual stocks always outperform funds.

I made a good bit in gold stocks in 2002 and then in education stocks in 2003. Right now I'm liquid. Not sure where I want to drop the funds right now.

[sonnic]

New Kid wrote:
Great stocks perform well unless the overall market is keeping even them down. I think finding the gems that are as yet undiscovered is the way to go and for me, individual stocks always outperform funds

I have to generally disagree with this because of the simple fact that Pro's Beat Amatures... Let me first say that i have many clients that feel the same way you do and we do pick and choose stocks and do win big sometimes but then we lose other times.

Imagine for a second you were able to obtain a spot on the PGA tour. You could go out and have fun playing with the pros and it would be a great time. OR you could hire a professional say TIGER WOODS to play for you for a 1% fee. I dont care what sport or business you talk about PROS JUST BEAT AMATURES!!! Why Compete against the tiger woods of investment world when you could hire him for a very low cost? If you buy individual stocks you are in a sense just having fun (as you do in VEGAS) Its fun to buy a stock and watch it go up and down. But lets be clear this is entertainment not investing. Don't you want the best people in the world to have your best interest at heart.

[dags_lax]

Don't you want the best people in the world to have your best interest at heart.

I certainly do wan't people who have my best interests at heart working for me. The problem is is that these pros have their own and employers best intrestest at heart and often times that is not the same as thier clients best interts. That's not to say that the pro and the investor cant't have the same interests. Any investor needs to understand that his pro and his employer are making their money off of the investor. Caveat emporer and a little reseach on the investors own part won't hurt.

When the pro & his employers compensation is based soley on the appreciation of an asset or dividends paid, then I would say that the best interests coincide.

[audiopro]

For the most part though because of groups like NASD, the pros have to do what's in their clients best interest. Else they get reported to NASD, it goes on their record, and NO ONE will hire them. At least not any big firms.

The good thing is also for the most part, the more money they make for you, the more money they make for themselves. The shady guys do not last long. You do however need to use a reputable firm, UBS, Merrill, B of A... And you need to build a solid relationship with your broker. Also before dealing with someone check them out through references and NASD.

For General Info
http://www.nasd.com/Investor/

For Broker History
http://www.nasdr.com/2000.asp

[New Kid In The Hall]

Sonnic,

Pros in the market think they are doing good if they generally beat the S&P. To simply beat the S&P, even after taxes is pathetic in my book. I have about 6 or 7 losers out of maybe 10 buys, but I keep the loss on a loser extremely minimal and I ride the winners. I'm just one of those guys that says if he can do, then I certainly can do it and nobody if going to watch my money like I would. Period. It's like owning the business...none of your employees will care for it or your customer like you will when you own it.

Dags, your previous post:


You are looking at the economy through the perspective of the markets and corporate profits based on historical performance. I focus more on the average citizenry

My items of concern:

1) Lack of education. For the first time in American history we have a generation will be less educated than their parents generation.
2) A shrinking middle class. Concentration of wealth at the top while an ever increasing percentage of the population is living in poverty and the stagnate growth of income for the middle class.
3) Short sighted government policies that favor short term investor profits over the long term welfare of the nation. Democrats are just as guilty of this as Republicans. Politicians are more concerned with reelection which brings me to my next point.
4) The influence of big money in the political arena. Santa Clara County v the Southern Pacific Railroad (1886) and court decisions derived from it need to be reigned in.
5) Federal deficits. We can't keep taking cash advances on the federal visa card. Although this may be shorter term. We had huge tax cuts under the Reagan administration under the assumption that this would boost the economy and the lost revenues would be made and then some. It didn't happen and forced Bush Sr. to go back on his campaign promise of "Read my lips. No new taxes." That probably cost him the election but his restoration of fiscal sanity played a significant role in the Clinton administration boom years.

I could probably go on but that’s enough for now.

First, there is more education today than there ever had been. The internet alone allows anyone who wants it to be as educated as they want to be. Problem with the formal educations now versus in the past is they are NOT educating, they are trying to replace the role of parents...the educators are trying to raise the kids and teach 'em what they should think instead of how to think.

The notion that the middle class is shrinking must be defined by what you think the middle class is? If all classes are doing better then there is nothing wrong with a perceived shrinking middle class. What's middle class? $40,000 per year to $100,000 per year? Higher? You have to define this before you make generalized statements like you did. Besides the wealthy drive the economy with their investmets, these are where the jobs are created. It has to happen in the private sector first.

Governemnt will never be able to make the right decisions for individual people, that is why the Constitution was a LIMITING document. It was designed to keep the government out of people's lives. It only gave specific power to the federal governmentl...anything not specifically noted to be for the federal government powers was relegated to the states.

Big money is bad. It is not a substitute for speech from a voting majority. An even bigger problem is the "give up" or "it's no use to vote" attitude of the large amount of voters that think they don't play a role anymore. Even worse are the voters that vote, but are so misinformed, they can be bamboozled by lies in political ads.

The deficit is a problem, but it's basically a Ponzi scheme right now against revolving due treasury instruments. It's us that we owe, and if I'm not mistaken, the debt to the non-existent social security trust fund isn't even included in the generally published numbers. I wish my contributions had my name on them, not the public at large. I have probably had to pay almost 10 times in FICA what I'm allowed to put in IRAs and get the benefit of a tax exempt contribution. I'm furious about this. This goes back to my point about me being able to take care of me better than the untrustworty government. I would concentrate more on getting rid of frivolous government programs than getting on this "deficit is the worst thing in the world" type mantra.

[dags_lax]

Aggreed that the pros are supposed to act on behalf of their clients best interest. But the sad fact is is they sometimes don't. If they all did we wouldn't have the scandals in financal world that we have today.

[audiopro]

Works like that with any industry. Go to get your 99 dollar brake job and suddenly it costs 400 bucks.. However, if you happen to be related to, dating, or the like, someone at the shop. The 99 bucks generally works out...

You have to do your homework before trusting anything of value to someone else. That is your responsibility. And I am sure you would want to know as much as possible about them, so why not dig a little.

[dags_lax]

Besides the wealthy drive the economy with their investments, these are where the jobs are created.

That fallacy has been bantered about so much and for so long that many people take it as gospel. The truth is that consumer spending drives the economy. When the consumer is spending investors put money into companies so that business can supply the demand and the investor make a profit. When the consumer isn't spending profits go down and investors are less likely to invest because the profits are not there and will not invest at all if they don't think that they will see a profit at some point on their investment. That’s why such a big deal is made out of the consumer spending and consumer confidence reports when they are released.

[New Kid In The Hall]

OK, I'll buy the consumer spending take, but consumers don't spend when they don't feel secure in their jobs or they are not getting better pay...tax breaks put more in their pockets that is tangible and when wealthy people start new companies to foster new ideas and investment, it creats a ton of jobs...the dot.com bust was rediculous, but there were some good jobs created with the investment of the venture capital from the wealthy...people were spending their pay when it was coming in, but it took money to make the jobs.

[skor]

We live in a world that the rich get richer and poor is getting poorer, and yes the middle class is shrinking no matter how you'll define them, they also carry most of the burden in tax payments since the poor don't pay that much and the rich have their ways to pay less.
No one can't stop that and change that, not an indevidual and not a goverment, that leaves our future and our kids future in our own hands. I do belive that education is the key, but to be honest I don't trust any school to do that for me, it's up to me to understand and to teach my kids (when I'll have some) the value of education, since the middle class is shrinking the choice that is left is either to be por or to be rich, good education (even general) will give you the tools to grow. Unfortunatlely there will always be poor and it's cruel to say but let's face it, someone has to clean Bill gate's office.
Socialism is not working, it has never worked and it will never work as long as human nature is there, we are corrupted and greedy and someone will always try to cash in on somebody else, In that case it's best to be ahead

[dags_lax]

Unfortunately there will always be poor and it's cruel to say but let's face it, someone has to clean Bill gate's office.

The only reason a person should be poor is because of choice, i.e. they don't want to earn a living. And I agree with you Skor, socialism will not work. The airline pilot flying that big jet who probably doesn't have half the education that I do deserves what he earns. The labor of my heart surgeon is certainly more valuable than that of an accountant. And the labor of the person that cleans Bill Gate's office has some value also. Not as much as the pilot, my heart surgeon, or an accountant, but it does have some value. And any one that is willing to put in an honest days work, whether it be cleaning offices, cooking fries at the local fast food joint, deserves a living wage.

[DZ314]

"Living wage" is the operable term, the unfortunate fact is many people do not make enough even though they work their asses off.

[audiopro]

I agree to a point with being poor a choice. I would say 70% of those who are poor choose to be that way. But there are a few that no matter how hard they work, just cannot get a break in life. I have seen many people who work their ass off just to earn barely enough to get by, and of course those who cheat their way through and get by quite well..

I do however think that 99% of those who are homeless or jobless choose to be that way. ANYONE can march their butt into the labor office, fill out a few forms, and hold a sign at a construction site that says SLOW/STOP, or dig ditches, or throw drywall. Some people arejust lazy and would rather collect what little the government will give them. But lets face it, would you actually want some of these people preparing your food, or building your home?? Probably not..

Maybe like others in this forum, I have had the best of jobs as well as the worst. I have worked fast food, done every type of construction, was a mechanic, you name it. My career took a swing about 5 years ago when someone realized my talent could make their company money. And they paved the way for me, as did I for them. We both had something to gain from my employment. Since then my skills have enhanced as well as the money I make. But it was a bit of a challenge in the years previous. I thought I would be a mechanic or work construction forever. Thing is, at the time, I was perfectly fine with that. I was happy... I'm happier now though...

I do agree with the latter portion of your post dags 100%!! If someone is willing to put in an honest days work, they should be able to make a living off it. Unfortunately that does not always happen. You would be surprised how many people are working under the table for 2 or 3 bucks an hour.

[New Kid In The Hall]

What separates the affluent from those that stuggle SOMETIMES has nothing to do with how hard each is willing to work. It's what you know and how you CHOOSE to apply it.

Skor, in communism and socialism, when someone gets more, someone else gets less. The notion that because I'm making more, someone else is making or getting less is a fallacy in a capitalistic model. There isn't this finite amount of money out there that we all have to fight over. It's about product and service and anyone can bring new product or service or better product or service into the market. Competition validates a sector or product and it forces a better quality product and/or better price. Education is great, but you have to have something practical to apply it to. There are a lot of highly-educated, broke people in our country. They are consumers, not producers. In a capitalistic model, when someone gets ahead or way ahead, there are alot of other people getting ahead too. Gates is responsible for directly or indirectly creating over 2 or 3 thousand millionaires as a result of the Microsoft success. I'm not a Microsoft fan, but I can't argue with his impact. He gives alot back too. I think the Clinton Justice Dept went after him because he just didn't contribute to democrats.

I disagree that if someone is willing to put in an honest days work, then they ought to be able to make a living off of it. Maybe if it is their business, but you imply that any job offered to someone that is willing to work might support them? Not necessarily true. Wages fit the job, not the need of the worker in most cases. If the guy cleaning Gate's office starts his own cleaning company then he owns the tools of his wage...the business. Thus he can make a living, but if he insists on solely working in a low paying job because as you so elequently showed, there is a supply and a demand that determines wages, he will then work hard, but he may not make a great or even modest living.

[Tanar]

In support to Audio's point, I work with a lot of youth with problems. Part of my job is to get them to work so they have less time to steal cars, break in to places for money, etc. It is unbelieveable how hard it is to get them to work! I remember wanting a job since I was 14 and have been working ever since. Most of these kids see their parents being useless and they don't really know any different. I drive through Winnipeg and see kids standing on the corners with signs saying "unemployed and need help", yet there is a McDonalds and a Tim Hortons (a very prosperous coffeee house in Canada) with help wanted sign just down the street from them. A lot of the jobless people don't want to work because leaching off of the gov't and other people is much easier.

I do also agree that if you own your own business, you can be as successful and in turn, as rich as you want to be depending on what you want to put into your business. This is a large part of my decision to get out of Probation and get into cabinetmaking. As a cabinet maker or such, there is an unlimited amount of money and success to be had as long as you apply yourself and are good at what you do. Also, what is the point of doing something unless you enjoy it? I sure as hell don't want to go through life hating what I do. My resignation letter went in yesterday. As of June 30, I will be an nemployed bum, but I will be going to school in the fall to learn the cabinet making trade. Life and success is what you make of it. Anyone can succeed, they just need the drive and determination.

[sonnic]

Their are a lot of good comments made here and I agree with some and disagree with others.

First New Kid, So you think you can pick stocks better than someone who is (no offense) 10 times smarter and 20 times more experianced than you? I know you can't and even if you do sometimes you won't beat the pro in the long run EVER. But supose you could do it as good as the best pros in the world. Doctors don't opperate on their family's. Lawyers don't represent themselves. My point is that you are emotional about your money just like the Dr. is emotional about his family. So their is no way you can make good decisions all the time. Like when to sell or buy a stock that has gone down. Your right its not their money and the reason its not there money is a reason they can do it better than you. We would all agree the best time to buy is at the lowest point in the market cycle. But interpreting when that actually is in real time is impossible to do, the stockmarket is people and you can never predict how people are going to react.

I think Education is important of course but these days the schools are made up of a bunch of socialists. Very few teachers are republicans and the socialist teachers slander Bush in the classroom. They can stay away from my son or daughter. I agree with SKOR we must teach them about the life in the world ourselves.

DAGS Quote: "Aggreed that the pros are supposed to act on behalf of their clients best interest. But the sad fact is is they sometimes don't. If they all did we wouldn't have the scandals in financal world that we have today."

I can't believe this, how many scandals can you name? you make it sound like were having scandal after scandal. Things like the enron scandal was bad i admit that but that doesn't happen that often. I think its just like the prissioner abuse scandal. Well it isn't a scandal it is a few dumb ass soldiers who crossed the line nothing else. Its not Rumsfelts fault that a low level soldier acts like an idiot. Also these "pros" are supose to act on behalf of the client and do because it is in their best interest. Their performance reflects on them having a job. The investment companys that hire these pros have one objective a sold return on investment. So if the Pro doesn't perform he will out of the business quickly and if he does people talk.

FREE ENTERPRISE is what makes this country great not government... ALWAYS

[New Kid In The Hall]

Sonnic, I don't think we disagree about too much, but you're right, most new traders get emotional over buying and selling. I was emotional at one time too. But if you're gonna play, you aren't going to pick 'em all right all of the time. Probably not even most of the time. I was amazed at how emotions in the market can drive the market so much. It's a stock, an investment instrument, nothing more. If I sell, make a hefty percentage, and it continues to rise. Fine, I'm ahead. I never try to buy at the bottom and I never try to sell at the top. I WILL however cap a bad choice quicker than you can blink. That's why I can make 7 out of 10 bad buys and still come out way ahead riding my 3 or so winners in 10.

Picking stocks is not rocket science. All of the best performing stocks in history had distinct characteristics. They weren't earnings losers and they weren't sales losers either. That's a good place to start. The pros might have better tools, but you can't tell me that most pros are experts in more than one or a few sectors or industries. They have to spend time in jobs to cover multiple sectors. Do you truly watch the entire market? Did you get the gold stock ride when other stocks were questionable? Did you get into the market after the plunge after 911 knowing it had to rebound? I made a little in all of these scenarios...and I am continuing to learn my way around the market. It takes a few years, but know what? I could study to be a doc or a lawyer if I want to to, so why can't I be successful doing my own investing? I can. Thanks for your insights.

Tanar, my dad is Canadian. Same stuff in USA, if kids don't learn at home to equate income with work, business, let's just say plain old effort, then they will not see it that way unless they learn from a mentor at some future time, god willing.

[dags_lax]

Wow this has been a great topic, lots of wonderful, civil, discussion. And now for some more replies on my part.


I can't believe this, how many scandals can you name? you make it sound like were having scandal after scandal. Things like the enron scandal was bad i admit that but that doesn't happen that often. .... Also these "pros" are supose to act on behalf of the client and do because it is in their best interest. Their performance reflects on them having a job. The investment companys that hire these pros have one objective a sold return on investment. So if the Pro doesn't perform he will out of the business quickly and if he does people talk.

Actually we are having scandal after scandal. The SEC brought 199 financial fraud cases in 2003 ( the most ever in one year), and 34 of them involved Fortune 500 companies. And I will name a couple of them and any one interested in can do an internet search to find more. This example is a generality as it involved quite a few companies. How about the mutual fund late trading and market timing scandals? Millions of investors were short changed on their profits because of these practices. And then there is Merill Lynch, whose analysts internally referred to certain stocks as dogs while maintaining buy ratings in order to support the stock price for companies that they had investment banking relationships with. And just a few days ago I read that the NASD is recommending action be taken against American Express for accepting payments from certain mutual funds to offer their shares to American Express clients. These are not insignificant events. Just these three examples adversely affected millions of investors for the financial gain of a few.

Just as a side note one of those companies no longer has my business because of one of these scandals. It turns out they didn’t have my best interests at heart after all.


The deficit is a problem, but it's basically a Ponzi scheme right now against revolving due treasury instruments. It's us that we owe

In 1997 foreign interests held over one trilliion dollars of U.S. Treasurry debt and foreign ownership of marketable U.S. Treasury Securities was 38.4% of the total. (This information was from the U.S. Treasury web site.)

Earlier this month Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan said his greatest concern for the economy is budget deficits.


Besides the wealthy drive the economy with their investmets, these are where the jobs are created. It has to happen in the private sector first.

A few more comments on this one. The depression of the 30s wiped out a lot of the people but for the most part the wealthy remained wealthy. The Duponts, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, the Melloms wer still rich. The wealthy weren’t investing because citizens did not have money to spend on goods and services. It was the Public Works Programs (government jobs programs) of the Rosevelt administration that was mostly responsible for pulling the U.S. out of the depression.


I disagree that if someone is willing to put in an honest days work, then they ought to be able to make a living off of it.

Every one is entitled to their opinion and mine is based on life experiences. I’ve had been in the situation where my two children have had to drink water instead of milk because one of them needed penicillin for an ear infection. I have been one car breakdown or one paycheck away from living at the Salvation Army. I was fortunate to get a job pulling the handle on a drill press at a local factory that paid pretty good wages. That job could just as well gone to one of probably a hundred other applicants. This allowed me go back to college and since then life has been good. If I have to pay 25¢ more for a big mac or earn a little less on my investments,then so be it. For the for the greater good of society I'm willing to do these things. After all I can afford it and I am not even rich. I remember what it is like and there but for the grace of God I could still be living paycheck to paycheck.


The internet alone allows anyone who wants it to be as educated as they want to be.

Maybe so but I still would be more comfortable if my heart surgeon got his education at a medical college.

[audiopro]

If I have to pay 25¢ more for a big mac or earn a little less on my investments,then so be it. For the for the greater good of society I'm willing to do these things. After all I can afford it and I am not even rich. I remember what it is like and there but for the grace of God I could still be living paycheck to paycheck.


Which brings us to another question. Surprised it hasn't been asked yet, but who thinks minimum wage should be inscreased, and to what?

I would give an absolute yes. The figure I would shoot for would be 7.50. I honestly think that with our current system of governing business, that it is about time the government help the people at the bottom of corporate ladder. So what they bring minimum wage up a couple bucks. Is that going to put the Owner of McDonalds in the local shelter cause he can't survive on 10 billion bucks?

[Deb]

[quote="audiopro
Which brings us to another question. Surprised it hasn't been asked yet, but who thinks minimum wage should be inscreased, and to what?[/quote]

Yes I agree that the minimum wage should be raised (Even tho I haven't had a job that I had min wage - Was usually paid couple dollars more due to my skills)

I believe it would encourage the youth to work more and learn the system of earning money and saving as well.

My neice is currently doing 2 jobs and she's only a junior. I asked her why 2 jobs? She stated that she need/wants more money so she can get some new clothes for her senior year and do some repairs/upgrade/work on her car that her own parents brought and paid for.

I think if the min wages were raised to at least 7 bucks, we would have better economy....more people would be able to spend money and that would increase the demands for products, and that would increase more orders for factories and so on.

Good question Audio :)

[CJK]

The problem with raising the minimum wage is that it drives so many other factors. If I run a local plastics plant (where I live has one of the largest concentrations of plastics plants in the world), my profit margin is pennies per thousands of parts. If I now have to pay $7 per hour or more, rather than the $6 per hour I'm paying people who work the low skill jobs now, then all of my wage rates will go up, and I'll have to raise prices. As soon as I raise prices, those products will be made in foreign countries. It happens far too often for less significant cost increases (health insurance, for one) for me not to believe it would happen on a large scale if minimum wage increases. The only way to prevent it is to give companies an incentive to buy American products and supplies.

[audiopro]

And I hope that it, along with other governmental programs, could help aid a growing trend. Single parents with little education. I know it is our choice to become pregnant. But the fact is, it is happening at a younger age. And the mothers often get left to raise the child alone. I know first hand, ex wife, that it is difficult. Say what you may, but in the end it is the children who pay for the shortcomings of their parents. I truly believe droves of people would be in a much more positive situation if our government funded and supported them to a greater extent. I'm not talking just raising minimum wage, although that need be done also. But increase the grants, food and health support, and availability, for mothers to take advantage of.

[audiopro]

The problem with raising the minimum wage is that it drives so many other factors. If I run a local plastics plant (where I live has one of the largest concentrations of plastics plants in the world), my profit margin is pennies per thousands of parts. If I now have to pay $7 per hour or more, rather than the $6 per hour I'm paying people who work the low skill jobs now, then all of my wage rates will go up, and I'll have to raise prices. As soon as I raise prices, those products will be made in foreign countries. It happens far too often for less significant cost increases (health insurance, for one) for me not to believe it would happen on a large scale if minimum wage increases. The only way to prevent it is to give companies an incentive to buy American products and supplies.

That's BS... Prices do not HAVE to raise. It is the greedy top level management and owners that want to line their own pockets. And while it is their capitalistic right, it is often at the expense of those who deserve better.

Sorry, I know Mr. Walmart may have worked hard for his empire, but from a moral standpoint. When is enough, enough for this deep pocketed rich folk?

[DZ314]

I agree, and this is why the rich get richer and the poor don't get a damn thing. :evil:

[CJK]

I represent people who own companies that employ anywhere from 5 to 2,000 people. Yes, a few of them made a lot of money off of their companies at various times, but for the most part, they make a decent living and nothing more, but they take all the risk. I know one who employs 50 people, who all make decent wages, yet he, the one with the risk and the 80 hour a week job, makes $50,000 per year. He could shut the doors and rent his building out for more than that. He keeps it going because he feels responsibility for those people. It's not BS.

In the plastics industry, where those profit margins are very slim, who do you expect to take a cut? The supervisors? The managers? The company owners who already are in debt up to their necks to keep their businesses running?

Your position may have had some merit a few years back, but these days, it's a lot different. Maybe that's only in my geographic area, but it's the reality I know.

[sonnic]

First to the raising unemployment question. It sounds great but wouldn't help anyone. If i start paying people more i have to hire less and more people would be out of work. I think CJK was just tring to lay out an example which would happen weather we like it or not. It is true a rich guy owns it but just because he has deep pockets doesn't mean he will shell out his own $$$. Its all about the companies balence sheet and if you raise the liability side without the assets going up too you will have a problem. Like in DEB's example her neice has two low paying jobs well if we raised minimum wages she would likely lose one of her jobs and get a raise on the other and would not work to her favor.

Dags,
Ok the SEC brought 199 fraud cases out in 2003. But they investigated them but that doesn't mean they all got charges filed. The SEC is tring to prevent another worldcom or enron scandal so they are investigating other companies that MAY be cooking the books. But it doesn't mean they are.

After market trading market timing: This is a topic that is talked about in my office almost daily. Mutual funds get priced once a day after the market closes at 3pm Central. Well sometimes we would get an order at 2:50 and not get it in until 3:30 and be able to put it in for today without a problem. What STRONG and other companies were doing is instead of waiting until the next day they were putting in orders for today after the market closed and was already priced putting orders in at 6-10pm. SO basicly they were seeing if the market went up and if it did then they would buy and if it didn't they wouldn't. Sounds like a good deal hey? well thats why its wrong. They did someother things too but that is the main thing they were doing.

Education: Yeah i would want my heart surgeon to have a harvard degree intead of an internet one. But they DO! A lot can be learned on the internet just look at this forum, but you cannot get a masters degree or go to medical school without actually going to a college. but you can get associate degrees on the internet which i think is good. Why is it dags you dont think kids are going to college? I know in my high school most of the kids have gone away to college. I think the opposite way, I think kids are going to school more than ever before. That is why College Tuition is growing at a 6% rate a year. Did you know that a four year education will cost apx 250K in 20 years for an average private school. So if you have kids or grandkids START A 529 COLLEGE SAVINGS PLAN... TODAY!!!

New Kid,
Don't misunderstand i am not tring to say you Can't do it im just simply saying that pros beat amatures. All im saying is hire the best to play for you instead of competing against them. Im not just talking about mutual funds their are money managers that will buy and sell stocks and bonds just for you. Ill tell you this you definatly have the premise right. Hold the winners and sell the losers fast. Sounds easy to do but believe me it isn't especially if its your money. GREED gets the best of us all sometimes. Examples: Say you bought a stock and doubled your money do you sell or do you hold???? tough question because on the one hand you doubled your money lets get out now while your ahead. If you would of thought that way 10 years ago with microsoft stock you would of missed out on the next 10000% gain. Or how about you buy a stock at 50 and it drops to 40 in a day you just lost $5000. Do you sell it and swallow the $5000 loss or wait and see if it comes back. Tough choice but the right one is to sell. And its easier for me to sell it than you, becasue its not my money. A decison like that alone could save the client Thousands of dollars. The stock didn't drop that much in one day for no reason their probibly is more bad to come. The stockmarket is all emotion and the less you have when investing the better you are. Thats where a financial advisor is the most valuable because they can make decisions with little emotion. You said before that its my money who is going to look out for it better than i can. and the answer is just about any financial advisor is better. I believe its best to put your money in a few great mutual funds and give it time to grow.

Fury the rich get richer cause they are smarter. Obviously their is exeptions but Poor people are poor Mainly because they don't want to take risk and start a business or they just dont want to work as hard and rich people do. Losers have a can't do attitude where Winners have a CAN do attitude

[audiopro]

I do not understand how the position could have merit years back, but not now?? Has the economy gotten better since 9-11? Has society changed in some manner that it has brough itself up and out of poverty? Maybe it is your geographical area, but where on earth do you live man?

Let me explain something. The ideals of minimum wage are not in the best interest of small companies, that is true. Hence the reason I stated the government needs to do more than just raise that. Small business owners take a huge hit, this is true. The larger the company the more ways they have to receive tax breaks, and thus... The richer.. Once again.... GET RICHER!!!

Plan of attack for that.. The government needs to give the breaks to smaller businesses. There is no one simple solution, that it true.. But I can tell you one thing that is not working for the poor and "Middle Class." That is, the current methodology...

Maybe your view would be different if you were busting your ass in the hot sun for 12 hours a day, to only bring home a few bucks an hour, while you see the banks cashing in HUGE on the sale and financing of the house you built with your labor..

You're right though. Small business owners don't always make big bucks. And I dont know what you mean by them taking all the risk? How is their risk different? If you form an LLC or one of the many other business models, you don't personally take ALL the risk. Besides, worst happens.. Business folds... Are you really any worse off than the other employees? Can you NOT go get another job, like they would have too?

[audiopro]

Fury the rich get richer cause they are smarter. Obviously their is exeptions but Poor people are poor Mainly because they don't want to take risk and start a business or they just dont want to work as hard and rich people do. Losers have a can't do attitude where Winners have a CAN do attitude

Sonnic, that is the biggest crock of shit I have seen on this board as of date... Excuse me for saying, but that kinda thinking just pisses me off... And I dont get pissed off...

Sorry ya'll.. Hit a nerve here..

[CJK]

The problem is the government tries to get involved too much already.

Try forming a company now. Then capitalize it. What? No one wants to give money to your start-up operation? Sure they will -- if the company owner signs personal guarantees. After the business is established, the owner may be able to remove those guarantees, but it isn't likely. Employees have no investment in the companies, because with the way the laws are, they will be paid their wages and retirement benefits if the company goes under, and the owner is stuck with the liabilities. Yes, corporate entities may have the effect of shielding some of the losses, but not all. The employees go work somewhere else, and start drawing their wages. The owners are left to clean up the mess, during which time they do not get any income, and then have to try to get a job. It's a lot harder for a person whose business failed to find a job than for the employee who got laid off.

I've busted my ass doing jobs that no one in their right mind would want to do, just because it was the only way to pay my bills and eat. However, I also worked my ass off while going to school so I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life that way. In the mean time, I saw classmates who were there on free rides from the government, either because their families had no money or their skin color happened to match a grant program's requirements. Some of them chose not to work hard, and they ended up dropping out. In this country, you're able to go far if you're willing to work for it. There are exceptions, but those are the ones that prove the rule, in effect.

The long and the short of it is, if not for those business owners who were willing to take risks and start companies, or who keep companies going despite the troubles they have, people would not have jobs that they can bitch about from the comfort of their living room chair after they finished their 40-hour week.

[audiopro]

The long and the short of it is, if not for those business owners who were willing to take risks and start companies, or who keep companies going despite the troubles they have, people would not have jobs that they can bitch about from the comfort of their living room chair after they finished their 40-hour week.

Touché... LOL.....

However I dont think it is the government gets involved too much already. I think it is they dont get involved in the proper manner..

[New Kid In The Hall]

audiopro, goverment doesn't know how to properly get involved...that's the problem. It is better if they just stay the heck out of the way. You can't legislate equality. The only think equal is opportunity.

Sonnic isn't spouting crock! He's right. I said it earlier, the difference between having wealth and not having wealth is what you know AND even more importantly, how you apply it. We are all where we are for two reasons, a) what we have at our disposal, and b) what we choose to make of it. It's not government's job to raise us, to truly gain and prosper, we need to raise ourselves.

[audiopro]

I know to many people who work very hard, much more laboriously than many well-off people, and can not get ahead for whatever host of reasons, to believe that theory.

And note, sonnic said nothing of being knowledgable or knowing how to apply it, but instead said "Poor people are poor Mainly because they don't want to take risk and start a business or they just dont want to work as hard and rich people do."

[dags_lax]

Ok the SEC brought 199 fraud cases out in 2003. But they investigated them but that doesn't mean they all got charges filed. The SEC is tring to prevent another worldcom or enron scandal so they are investigating other companies that MAY be cooking the books. But it doesn't mean they are.

Actually Sonic it does mean that charges were filed. I can’t find the citation right now but I will offer another one to support the validity of my claim

Thomas Newkirk, Associate Director of Division of Enforcement, stated that between July 2002 and the end of December 2003, the DOJ brought 300 criminal corporate fraud cases against 600 defendants, including 44 CEOs. He added that there are currently 350 open corporate fraud investigations involving 620 subjects. http://slw.issproxy.com/securities_litigation_blo/2004/03/highlights_from.html

Most of these cases end up being settled with defendants paying large fines and no admission of wrong doing. I guess because the weren’t convicted and didn't admit to wrong doing they really weren’t doing anything wrong.


Poor people are poor Mainly because they don't want to take risk and start a business or they just dont want to work as hard and rich people do

Perhaps the poor don’t want to take the risk but it takes far more that hard work to start a business. It also takes money and if the poor had money they wouldn’t be poor. There is a lot of truth to the old adage that it takes money to make money. There always exceptions and every one has heard a rags to riches story but for every one of those stories there are multitudes who work hard but never seem to shake off the rags.


I know to many people who work very hard, much more laboriously than many well-off people, and can not get ahead for whatever host of reasons, to believe that theory.

In my experience I have found the less I have been paid the harder I have had to work for that pay. Sure many owners, managers, and bosses have stressful jobs, and work long hours. But many workers at the lower end of the wage scale also work long hours and have stressful lives. There is a world of difference between the stress of worrying if sales are enough to justify a new BMW and wondering if you can afford dental checkups for your family.

[New Kid In The Hall]

Audiopro, when you look at wealthy people and you don't think they are working as hard as people who you know that in your estimation work very hard and do not make much, you are only seeing their efforts today. You are not basing your assessment on the efforts you haven't seen. People who aren't working as hard typically have already worked harder at one time or another than most are willing to (the folks Sonnic is probably referring to). And in general they were willing to take a risk and put some skin in the game.

This is what I mean by learning and then applying. Wealthy people work smart. My efforts attempt to engage in earnings that pay me over time, not just an hours for dollars swap. Hours for dollars is a dead end regardless of what you make per hour. Everyone only has 24 and typically your ability to earn is in you and your ability to work. If you can't continue to work, you can't earn. Even worse, you work, you get paid, and you never get paid again based on that work. Dead end.

[DZ314]

There is a world of difference between the stress of worrying if sales are enough to justify a new BMW and wondering if you can afford dental checkups for your family.

That says a lot right there. A simliar quote I caught while watching the film, Surviving the Game, applies here.

well-off man, "Man, I have been through hard times!"

not well-off man, "What? Your jacuzzi broke?" 8O

[audiopro]

Just curious.. Since I must be missing something here..

But given a typical situation:

How can you spend hours upon hours going to school to become a doctor, or how can you save thousands of dollars to start your own business, when you are working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet because you were NOT fortunate enough to have a rich family who put you through college and paid your way through life until you graduated?

Granted, that is not always the case. But I would venture to say 80% of well-off people, come from well-off families.

Honestly man, please shed some light on where you get the funds and time to make it big, when you're working for minimum wage to get your kids some food???

[dags_lax]

This is what I mean by learning and then applying. Wealthy people work smart. My efforts attempt to engage in earnings that pay me over time, not just an hours for dollars swap. Hours for dollars is a dead end regardless of what you make per hour. Everyone only has 24 and typically your ability to earn is in you and your ability to work. If you can't continue to work, you can't earn. Even worse, you work, you get paid, and you never get paid again based on that work. Dead end.

Well put New Kid. No one ever got rich working for someone else. Make your money work for you and not vice versa. That is the key to wealth. of course you have to get the money first before it can work for you.

[Deb]

My mom has said it the best when I inquired about "people" with things and so forth....

"Who cares about money? If you have enough money to get the basic necessaries that you need, and you are happy. What more could you ask for?"

She really hit home on that one for me.

(By the way...My family was among the poor class and they moved up to middle class when I turned roughly 13 yrs old...Dad was over the road trucker - Now medically retired and mom is a secretary for hospital)

It is not easy and my parents have given up alot of things so that we could have things.

It isn't the value of gifts, or money. It's the thought of spending time, and realizing that ya have a roof over your head and that you are fortunate enough to have family.

(Had to pinch that one in...since it was all talk about money and sorts of people)

[CJK]

My father worked his ass off for 38 years in a physically demanding job so that my mother wouldn't have to work and we could live in an area with good schools. Because he was smart with his money, he retired at 58. He couldn't afford to pay tuition for 4 kids, though, and although he helped us out, we were limited to working and student loans. My brother worked during college, and now is a nursing home administrator. My one sister is a nurse, the other is a service rep for an insurance company. I worked my way through undergrad, two years of grad school, and three of law school. Yes, I'm still paying student loans 10 years after I graduated, but I make a decent living and have a job I like. No one had to hand me the cash for my education; I chose to take that path and worked for it. I know people who are in medical school who have spouses that work, or they live at home with their parents to save money so that, down the road, their lives will be better.

[sonnic]

Dags,
That is very compelling evidence and Im not going to try and defend it but ALL people do things wrong. the fact that the DOJ opened 300 cases in a year and a half doesn't sound good but if you put it in proper perspective... How many companies are in America? Thousands and thousands. How many people work at those companies? If you think about it 300 companies had charges brought against them how many companies and employees are doing a great job? Well i say its most and yes their will be a few bad apples at anywhere you look. Overall Corporate America is honest, hardworking, and Trustworthy.

I WROTE : the rich get richer cause they are smarter. Obviously their is exeptions but Poor people are poor Mainly because they don't want to take risks and start a business or they just dont want to work as hard and rich people do. Losers have a can't do attitude where Winners have a CAN do attitude

I didn't say that in the best way but i think it is for the most part true. Im not saying poor people dont work hard, I just mean they don't plan as good for the future. As Most rich people do.

Some people have to work hard and some people choose to. Im in Sales but that doesn't mean i dont work as hard as a guy working outside doing labor work. Yeah my job is a hell of a lot easier physicly but i still work hard ( :oops: oh wait im working right now) :oops: :mrgreen: . I believe i just made a smarter career decision. the guy working hard outside could just as easily be working inside with me but likes to work hard outside... and then bitch about people like me who have it so great.... dam i hate that :evil: Its not like we live in IRAQ where Saddam tells you are going to be a mason...and says NOW GO TO WORK and then he turns to me and gives me a nice office job... it just isn't like that. I made a smarter decision if audiopro's friend would go apply at some other places and try and move up he eventually would. I think he doesn't want to move up he likes his labor job and making decent money.

It all depends on what your definition of poor is... A guy who works his ass of and makes 25 bucks an hour 50K a year, is he poor, I say no. but some would say yes and some say no. I also don't buy it when people claim they can't get a job, it pisses me off. I live in a town of 2,000 people i am 22 years old and have had many jobs in my life. and have been working since i was 13 years old. Never once did i ever find it hard to find a job. Now if you just graduated college and your tring to get into a field that has a very high demand then I feel for ya. Its my friends that collect unemployment and say they can't find a job. IT'S JUST BULSHIT

Anyone in any walk of life can be at least well off (50K a year) if they plan and then work the plan. ANYONE

[audiopro]

And people are very fortunate when they can do that.. But what about the ones who cant do that? Are they poor because they dont want to work as hard as the rich guy?? Or are they poor because they have to do nothing but work, and are stuck in the position their in due to whatever reason?

[Deb]

There's 7 kids in the family. Only 1 have graduated from college. One's going to night college, and I myself have moved back into my parent's house for the time being to help around the house since my father is medically retired (I am also the only child that doesn't have a spouse or children) and as well as playing catch up on my debts. I also plan on returning to college part time and finish my college plans.

So yes..you do have to give up some things that are valuable to you in order to make your life better down the road.

That's a choice that we all have. It is up to us if we want to live our lives in the lower class, middle class and on and on.

[DZ314]

Are there enough 50k/yr jobs for everyone to do it? Yeah right, I think not. The economy dictates how many decent jobs are available and as we know there are always too many people trying to get those few jobs. Does that mean those who failed to get that job are losers with a losing attitude?

[sonnic]

No fury their isn't enough for everyone to have but their will always be people who don't want to try as hard as they could and settle for something less. It is a good thing that their are to few 50K jobs it motivates the people who don't have them to work better and harder to get them. Which also raises the bar for the rest of society. The harder i work the better i do the better i do the better my company does and the better my company does the more 50K jobs will be available.

It all comes down to working hard to obtain a goal. whats your goal? Do you have one that is obtainable? If not then do something else. Its not rockets science and their will always be exceptions but basicly if you work hard and make a few key decisions along the way you will get where your tring to go. Sometimes you just have to move on from a company and start fresh. Always have your self up for sale. and i dont mean for sex. When ever i buy a car it immediatly goes up for sale. Why? because everything is for sale. If i can make a few thousand on a deal your dam right im going to do it. Until you get comfortable and happy in a job then you can stop but always be looking for a better opportunity. THEY ARE OUT THERE AND ARE OBTIAINABLE FOR ANYONE.

But you are right everyone cannot get 50K jobs but Most people and i say most meaning all physicly capable people can get there if they work for it.

[DZ314]

Yeah, and are patient enough to wait until there becomes another one they can apply for! My point is that yes, anyone THEROETICALLY can get the 50k job but just that there needs to be something done which creates many more of those kinds of jobs and I am not talking about working 70hrs a week at a damn factory.

[New Kid In The Hall]

You know, my Dad came to the US with $20 in his pocket from Canada from a coal mining town on the Atlantic Ocean. He joined the US Air Force, then became a police officer, then worked in investigations, today he's completely retired with no debt, not even on his $500,000 value house and an estate worth over $1 million.

You got to have the 'nads to start somewhere. He worked multiple jobs early on when he was making $6,000 per year as a police officer in the late 60's and early 70's, but he's not lazy and he knew what he wanted. He just flat got after it. He was working long before he got his degree. He did nights after he had a job.

For every "under-priviledged" or "unfortunate" situation you can point to in order to make the case that some people just don't have the opportunity, you could also cite one that shows "Well, here's is someone that had a similar situation that did this..." We got to make lemonade out of lemons when we have 'em. It's about attitude and not having broke mentality. Times can get tough, sure, but it's your mind that digs you out. Figuratively and literally.

Dags_lax, you said if the poor had money, then they wouldn't be poor. Not so. I still maintain that broke is a mental state and if you can't manage a little, you'll be busted with a lot. You can be broke at any level if you spend more than you make until you can out earn your lifestyle.

Deb, your Mom might have been trying to rationalize not having alot, I don't know, so I'm not passing judgement. I know nothing about hers or your situations when you were growing up, but others taught me to think beyond my own needs. If I have more, then I can also impact others positively. It ain't all about just satisfying our own needs. I always say "To whom much is given, much is required."

Wealthy people give alot of money away. They don't do it out of guilt either, unless you're a liberal, left-wing, democrat. They do it out of a genuine compassion for others, but the best kind of handout is a handup.

There were other things I would like to respond to, but the posts get too long.

[audiopro]

Yeah, I disagee with portions of this thread and agree with some of it too.. But wow, there have been some lengthy posts here. You can tell good ole sonnic found a topic we have deep opinions on.. Good job sonnic, you got our brain gears turning for a bit.. ;)

[New Kid In The Hall]

Audiopro, hey, one great thing is we are all allowed to be wrong...but I agree with you, this was a topic well worth Chit Chatting about. We can all have our views and we may not agree with each other, but it's neat to find out how others that don't agree with us form their views and come to their conclusions. Some of that has been drawn out.

I learned that who I was going to become was going to be most driven by two factors...what I read and who I associated with. Huge factors.

[audiopro]

So you attribute much of who you are to what you have read? Do you mean that things you have read have molded you into the person you are, or that you read things to become more knowledgable about a subject?

btw, I enjoy the discussion we all share here, and am often impressed by the maturity we retain when things get a bit heated... I attribute this to just plain and simply, everyone here being good people.. :)

[DZ314]

Yeah, and now because of all this control I am going outside to kick the neighbor's dog. j/k :P

[Deb]

hahaha ya're such a dork ;)

[DZ314]

LOL thanks Deb I know! ;)

[audiopro]

As long as it's the neighbors dog.. Actually no...

Going to get in trouble here... But......

Kick a damn cat instead!!

[Deb]

You better not kick no dang cats or ya'll meet the Nutcracker in no time ;)

[New Kid In The Hall]

Audiopro, I read for both reasons -- to mold myself and to learn new subject matter.

[DZ314]

*pfffft!!!!!!* MEOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol :lol:

[sonnic]

I HATE CATS!!!!! Sorry cat lovers but cats are boring animals

New Kid, Good post and good point. Anyone can tell you about the good or bad of any situation, so why dwell on the bad so much. Like new kid's dad he was smart, he started a business took a little risk and is very successful today. Just about everyone can obtain a comfortable life.

And i like your comment about poor being a state of mind. Very true! I know its only a TV show but "Married with Children" is a classic example, when the bundy's get lucky and win something they just end up blowing the it somehow and never really get out of being poor. I have never really thought of it like that but I think that is true to some degree.

Fury, Im not talking about a 70 Hr. a week factory job either. I Think that if someone works hard and has a level head they can get a job were that make 50k a year and work 40hr weeks. You just need to apply yourself. sound like my dad now...... IM SCARED :oops:

[DZ314]

I agree sonnic, I am just saying that opportunities are limited and getting that to happen can pose more of a problem given the state of jobs going overseas, etc.

[sonnic]

I see your point but i wouldn't worry to much about jobs being such a problem. unemployment is fairly low now (under 6%) and the economy is growing stronger by the day. Their are certainly opportunities out there, just have to look.

[sonnic]

it seems like we all know someone who is unemployed but how many of us in here have a job?

[Deb]

I do I do I do I do I do *waves her hand madly*

I got me a job!

Oh yeah..ya all already knew that...DUH ME ;)

(Just had to add a lil humor here)

[audiopro]

I have a regular full time job in addition to the consulting I do. Both are in the Network Admin/Engineering field, however most of my consulting is in the area of enterprise network security.

[sonnic]

i only ask because i know that most and probibly everyone would have a job. I just dont buy it that someone cannot find a job. Maybe they can't be rocket scientists but they CAN find a job

[audiopro]

When I lost my job a few years back, I actually looked for about 3 months with no sucess. Some buds from Clicks that work construction offered me a job and I worked with them for about a year until I got back into the IT industry. You know what, that year did me good!!!

I got a nice break from sitting in front of a computer, and we really had a blast working together. I enjoy doing that kind of work, however the level that we were doing it at just doesn't leave much in the way of greenbacks. And the benefits were non-existant because we didn't work for a company, just ourselves doing whatever job we wanted.

But I agree 100%... Almost everyone can find a job, it just may not be making 60k a year.. But McD's is always hiring!! :)

[DZ314]

LOL, I got a job at a bank doing many fun things! :lol:

[audiopro]

Yeah, playing all day on Internet forums for one!!! ;)

[DZ314]

:lol:

[sonnic]

same here :lol: 8)

how did you end up turning Green?

[dags_lax]

That is very compelling evidence and Im not going to try and defend it but ALL people do things wrong. the fact that the DOJ opened 300 cases in a year and a half doesn't sound good but if you put it in proper perspective... How many companies are in America? Thousands and thousands. How many people work at those companies? If you think about it 300 companies had charges brought against them how many companies and employees are doing a great job? Well i say its most and yes their will be a few bad apples at anywhere you look. Overall Corporate America is honest, hardworking, and Trustworthy.

Yes, let's put this in a proper perspective. The SEC has limited funds and manpower with which to work so they do not to investigate all instances of suspected corporate fraud. So the problem runs deeper than just the 300 companies that charges were brought against. That three hundred are just those that got caught. The number actual companies engaging in fraud is probably far greater. The SEC puts their efforts in to the more serious instances of abuse. 34 out the nations top 500 companies having charges brought against it in ONE YEAR. That's 6%. That's 6% that got caught. That's not a few bad apples. That’s a very serious problem. Just think, if six percent of the population was out there beating old ladies with a pipe and stealing their retirement checks there would be a huge outcry and demands for some real action. Yet cooperate America decries government interference and pushes for self regulation and oversight as they keep on beating little old ladies over the head with their equivalent of a lead pipe.

No Sonic I don't think that it's a case of a few bad apples. I think fraud and malfeasance is running rampant in cooperate America. Think about it.
6% of the nations top 500 companies stealing from the American public. Just because it is lawyers and accountants with briefcases doesn't mean it is any less of a crime than the being robbed by a junkie with a pipe or a gun.

[9balldiva]

I'm know I'm late to the discussion but I'd still like to add my $.02...

Poor/broke is a state of mind. There are so many dead beats out there who have the potential to be something but just don't care about it. Bums are perfect examples. They'd rather sit on the side of the road asking for handouts instead of looking around to see who is hiring whether it be McDonalds or Procter & Gamble. I know there are exceptions...those who are veterans (etc) who CAN'T work...that is sad and something should be done about it.

I was raised to follow my dreams and that I could be anything i wanted. I have to apply myself, but the motivation here is not to end up like some of the people I see around my town. My parents started off small...very small. My dad never went to college, he joined the army when he was 21, right after I was conceived, in hopes to create a better opportunity for him and his family. He is now an officer, and close to retirement. My mom has worked for the same boss for 19 years, and is finally making a decent living. She decided to go back to school at 39...after long past realizing it would take her nowhere nowadays to be degreeless. Now, I have those same morals, and I will finish college on my own, working two jobs, and being tired everyday of my college years...if that is what it takes to ensure a good living for myself and my future family.

There are plenty of jobs that offer 40K-50K a year to anyone...it's just a matter of getting off ones ass to figure out what you have to do to qualify for it. It is amazing how many different kinds of scholarships and grants are out there...i.e. they actually have a scholarship for red headed, left handed people...and for people who are white with at least 1/8 indian blood, and for children of military retirees, etc...they are endless. It's a lazy, no good person who doesn't at least try to go somewhere...

[sonnic]

Awsome comment DIVA I agree 100%